Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by dhkendall »

skullturf wrote:
Leaper wrote:I got the FJ despite knowing extremely little about (and never having read) the novel. Lucky guess?

And I was kind of surprised at what counted for $2000 in this game, especially "westernmost country in Europe." I think I actually thought to myself, "they can't mean Portugal, can they? Not at $2K..."
I did the same thing! My first instinct was Portugal, but I thought "Bottom clue -- it might be tricky!"

Without looking at a map, I know that Portugal doesn't take up the entire west coast of the Iberian peninsula -- there's a part of Spain "above" Portugal. I wouldn't have known, without looking, whether that portion of Spain extends slightly further west than Portugal.

Complicating matters, the clue said something to the effect of being ruled by a dictator until the mid-1970s, and I thought to myself, "That applies to Spain, too, doesn't it?" So I remained clam on that one, and was annoyed when Portugal was correct.
Remember "France" was also a correct response, and it's east of most of Spain, not just Galicia (the part above Portugal). (Although, I guess that France borders the Bay of Biscay, not the Atlantic Ocean, per the conversation we had a few weeks back on this topic)

skullturf, I had the exact same thought processes, but the Portuguese dictatorship(s, thought there was only one) was a headslap on reveal. ("Of course! The Carnation Revolution!")
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Linear Gnome »

opusthepenguin wrote:Allow me to apologize and assure you I meant no offense when I wrote the following: "Is it a coincidence that Ilene made exactly the bet that would have been placed by a contestant who hated the category and had a sophisticated understanding of wagering? Yeah, probably." I see now that I would have lost that bet. I was just playing the odds, knowing that most contestants don't seem to understand wagering strategy. You are a delightful exception. I suspect I should have considered your many years of playing Bridge and predicted your superior analytical gifts.

I'm with you. You should have no regrets. You made a good wager and things just didn't break your way.
Not offended at all. I know the bet looks silly at first, especially the "nice round number" aspect of it, but I was confident that some people here would see its validity, and I was not disappointed on that count.

I don't know what our combined Coryat was yet, but I think it was pretty good, and at least we cleared both boards.
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by CyrusChan »

I know this is random, but might anyone recall or know Ilene's last name? Thanks
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by ComingUpMilhouse »

CyrusChan wrote:I know this is random, but might anyone recall or know Ilene's last name? Thanks
Morgan.
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by CyrusChan »

dhkendall wrote:
skullturf wrote:
Leaper wrote:I got the FJ despite knowing extremely little about (and never having read) the novel. Lucky guess?

And I was kind of surprised at what counted for $2000 in this game, especially "westernmost country in Europe." I think I actually thought to myself, "they can't mean Portugal, can they? Not at $2K..."
I did the same thing! My first instinct was Portugal, but I thought "Bottom clue -- it might be tricky!"

Without looking at a map, I know that Portugal doesn't take up the entire west coast of the Iberian peninsula -- there's a part of Spain "above" Portugal. I wouldn't have known, without looking, whether that portion of Spain extends slightly further west than Portugal.

Complicating matters, the clue said something to the effect of being ruled by a dictator until the mid-1970s, and I thought to myself, "That applies to Spain, too, doesn't it?" So I remained clam on that one, and was annoyed when Portugal was correct.
Remember "France" was also a correct response, and it's east of most of Spain, not just Galicia (the part above Portugal). (Although, I guess that France borders the Bay of Biscay, not the Atlantic Ocean, per the conversation we had a few weeks back on this topic)

skullturf, I had the exact same thought processes, but the Portuguese dictatorship(s, thought there was only one) was a headslap on reveal. ("Of course! The Carnation Revolution!")





Yeah I was surprised that portugal was a 2k clue and liberia came out again! Also was pre-calling something across the likes of Suriname.
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by CyrusChan »

ComingUpMilhouse wrote:
CyrusChan wrote:I know this is random, but might anyone recall or know Ilene's last name? Thanks
Morgan.

Thanks, now I get her ID as if I were to do something like that, it'd be something like : as crunchy or say crunch. Haha
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by TryphonTournesol »

skullturf wrote:
Leaper wrote:I got the FJ despite knowing extremely little about (and never having read) the novel. Lucky guess?

And I was kind of surprised at what counted for $2000 in this game, especially "westernmost country in Europe." I think I actually thought to myself, "they can't mean Portugal, can they? Not at $2K..."
I did the same thing! My first instinct was Portugal, but I thought "Bottom clue -- it might be tricky!"

Without looking at a map, I know that Portugal doesn't take up the entire west coast of the Iberian peninsula -- there's a part of Spain "above" Portugal. I wouldn't have known, without looking, whether that portion of Spain extends slightly further west than Portugal.

Complicating matters, the clue said something to the effect of being ruled by a dictator until the mid-1970s, and I thought to myself, "That applies to Spain, too, doesn't it?" So I remained clam on that one, and was annoyed when Portugal was correct.
I suppose the trick is that it was Portugal instead of Spain, which I think would be expected as the more common answer. But this is shades of that Denmark/France question except arguably even worse. The clue contains no real giveaway information! Spain was ruled by a dictator from 1936 until 1975 and Portugal was ruled by a dictator from 1933 until 1974. Those are VERY similar timespans. (Did they specify the start in the clue? I don't remember now.) And the westernmost point on mainland Spain is at nine degrees, 18 minutes West, while the westernmost point on mainland Portugal is at nine degrees, 30 minutes West - in other words, a fifth of a degree, which translates roughly to a difference of just 14 miles! I personally went with Portugal because I just sensed that it was more likely to be right in that spot - and because I pictured the jutting portion that contains Cabo da Roca, which as it happens is the westernmost point in mainland Europe. I didn't realize at the time how close Spain came, though. This was a pretty classic example of a "binary screw," with the best reason to choose Portugal being simply that it was a $2000 clue and thus less likely to be as "obvious" as Spain. Or if they gave a start year for the dictatorship other than 1936; since the Spanish Civil War pretty famously started in that year, any other year would thus have ruled Spain out.
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

Linear Gnome wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote: Does that seem like something a reasonable person could shoot for? If so, what bet should that reasonable person place in this situation? Figure it out before you look. No cheating.

$3,000. Which is exactly the amount Ilene wagered. If she misses, she still has $8,800--a dollar more than what Dylan will have if he made the shutout bet. (As things turned out, Dylan made the shutout-tie bet and would have been a co-champion.) Is it a coincidence that Ilene made exactly the bet that would have been placed by a contestant who hated the category and had a sophisticated understanding of wagering? Yeah, probably. But at most, that might mean she placed a good bet for a dumb reason. Until I hear what that dumb reason is, I see nothing to criticize.
Thank you! On my scratch paper, I had 3(11800)-2(16200)=3000. My thought process was exactly as you described.
[Spoiler tags removed. Anyone who's read this far has either done the math or is just as happy not to.]

I actually had to grab a piece of paper and do some algebra to figure out why "3(11800)-2(16200)=3000" amounted to the same thought process I was describing. It still seems kind of like magic to me that three times your score minus two times his would yield your maximum safe bet. Yet to you that was just the obviously efficient way of representing what we've been talking about. You math geeks are a hoot. :)
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Linear Gnome »

CyrusChan wrote:
ComingUpMilhouse wrote:
CyrusChan wrote:I know this is random, but might anyone recall or know Ilene's last name? Thanks
Morgan.
Thanks, now I get her ID as if I were to do something like that, it'd be something like : as crunchy or say crunch. Haha
:mrgreen: Thanks for noticing.
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Leander »

The clue contains no real giveaway information! Spain was ruled by a dictator from 1936 until 1975 and Portugal was ruled by a dictator from 1933 until 1974. Those are VERY similar timespans. (Did they specify the start in the clue?
The clue said the country was ruled by dictatorships from 1926 to 1974, I think, or sometime in the mid 1920's. I thought this was a trick question, figuring Galicia might project further into the Atlantic than Portugal, but I knew Spain only had one dictator starting with the civil war in the mid 1930's. So I wouldn't have answered.
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by TryphonTournesol »

Leander wrote:
The clue contains no real giveaway information! Spain was ruled by a dictator from 1936 until 1975 and Portugal was ruled by a dictator from 1933 until 1974. Those are VERY similar timespans. (Did they specify the start in the clue?
The clue said the country was ruled by dictatorships from 1926 to 1974, I think, or sometime in the mid 1920's. I thought this was a trick question, figuring Galicia might project further into the Atlantic than Portugal, but I knew Spain only had one dictator starting with the civil war in the mid 1930's. So I wouldn't have answered.
Okay, looking further, the initial deposition of democratic rule by the military in Portugal was in 1926; the Estado Novo was only officially set up in 1933. So 1926 to 1974 would be a giveaway - it's obscure, but I guess that's why it's $2000. If you know you can rule out Spain, though, Portugal is all that's left!
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by AndyTheQuizzer »

I just want to say the following:

I respect all three bets in tonight's game -- they all had thought and strategy behind them.

I might not have personally agreed with two of them in practice, if only because of Drew's incentive to do exactly what he chose to do.

But if I were teaching a "Jeopardy! betting" class, I suspect all three contestants, provided they could come up with their proper justifications in writing (and I expect they would), would get a good grade if they were betting this situation like this on an exam.
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by TenPoundHammer »

skullturf wrote:
Leaper wrote:And I was kind of surprised at what counted for $2000 in this game, especially "westernmost country in Europe." I think I actually thought to myself, "they can't mean Portugal, can they? Not at $2K..."
I did the same thing! My first instinct was Portugal, but I thought "Bottom clue -- it might be tricky!"
My eyesight must really be going, because I didn't see "Westernmost country in Europe" in the clue at all.

I also had a momentary lapse in judgment and wondered how France could possibly be bordering the Atlantic. Because it's next to Spain, you twit. Come on, I suck at geography, but I still knew that much.
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by ChemTeacher »

TenPoundHammer wrote:I usually do well on animal categories, but I had never heard of either definition of "rook" in that clue (the bird or "to swindle")
From Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows:
“Aha!” shouted Ron, as the wind whipped their hair and clothes. Ron was pointing upward, toward the top of the hill on which they had appeared, where a most strange-looking house rose vertically against the sky, a great black cylinder with a ghostly moon hanging behind it in the afternoon sky. “That’s got to be Luna’s house, who else would live in a place like that? It looks like a giant rook!”

“It’s nothing like a bird,” said Hermione, frowning at the tower.
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by TenPoundHammer »

What can I say? I gave up after Goblet of Fire. Wasn't getting anything out of it.
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by ComingUpMilhouse »

ChemTeacher wrote:
TenPoundHammer wrote:I usually do well on animal categories, but I had never heard of either definition of "rook" in that clue (the bird or "to swindle")
From Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows:
“Aha!” shouted Ron, as the wind whipped their hair and clothes. Ron was pointing upward, toward the top of the hill on which they had appeared, where a most strange-looking house rose vertically against the sky, a great black cylinder with a ghostly moon hanging behind it in the afternoon sky. “That’s got to be Luna’s house, who else would live in a place like that? It looks like a giant rook!”

“It’s nothing like a bird,” said Hermione, frowning at the tower.
I want to say rooks showed up in the Redwall books from time to time as well, if we want to get even nerdier with this.
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by TenPoundHammer »

^ Now those I got more enjoyment out of. Haven't read them in a long time, though, so I'm sure some stuff has been forgotten.
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Volante »

Linear Gnome wrote: Once I got over the initial shock and the would've-could've-should've's (e.g., it would have only taken 600 more dollars to close my "donut hole"), I made peace with the situation and I honestly have no regrets.

I'll probably add more later.
Don't worry...someone else who frequents here will stay up nights fretting for you. :lol:

Anyone else go for the showoff response of "1958 Plymouth Fury"?

That clue pretty much used all of what I know about Anna Karenina, altho I currently have the Knightley version about 7 feet away on my shelf in the 'to view' pile...it'll be after Quantum of Solace and Skyfall.
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by seaborgium »

opusthepenguin wrote:
Linear Gnome wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote: Does that seem like something a reasonable person could shoot for? If so, what bet should that reasonable person place in this situation? Figure it out before you look. No cheating.

$3,000. Which is exactly the amount Ilene wagered. If she misses, she still has $8,800--a dollar more than what Dylan will have if he made the shutout bet. (As things turned out, Dylan made the shutout-tie bet and would have been a co-champion.) Is it a coincidence that Ilene made exactly the bet that would have been placed by a contestant who hated the category and had a sophisticated understanding of wagering? Yeah, probably. But at most, that might mean she placed a good bet for a dumb reason. Until I hear what that dumb reason is, I see nothing to criticize.
Thank you! On my scratch paper, I had 3(11800)-2(16200)=3000. My thought process was exactly as you described.
[Spoiler tags removed. Anyone who's read this far has either done the math or is just as happy not to.]

I actually had to grab a piece of paper and do some algebra to figure out why "3(11800)-2(16200)=3000" amounted to the same thought process I was describing. It still seems kind of like magic to me that three times your score minus two times his would yield your maximum safe bet. Yet to you that was just the obviously efficient way of representing what we've been talking about. You math geeks are a hoot. :)
I was going to make a post to respond to just that, but the board wonked out sometime in between my clicking the Quote button and the Submit button, and I pasted my reply elsewhere and distracted myself. But yeah, I was impressed too.

Here's how it works out (I know I'm preaching to the choir in your case, opus, but I'm just putting it out here):
We'll call first place's pre-FJ score f and second place's s.
If first place offers a tie to second, first's wager is 2s - f.
So if first is wrong, his score will be f - (2s - f) = 2f - 2s = 2(f - s), i.e. double first's pre-FJ lead.
If second is above 2f - 2s, it's a decent bet to try and remain above that. So the wager to do that is s - (2f - 2s) = s - 2f + 2s = 3s - 2f. There you go!
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Re: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Vanya »

Leander wrote:
At least Dylan guessed a novel having something to do with trains, it had a non-zero chance of being correct.
Actually since the clue referred to a comment by the title character and trains don't talk, he had a zero chance of being correct.
Thomas the Tank Engine talks, and I believe has been the subject of Jeopardy clues.

Dammit, now I say die-lan for dylan.
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