Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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goatman
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by goatman »

La Paz came instantly then I pondered former Soviet states until Alex said, "Vatoots" lol and they penalize players for pronouncing!
Instant recognition on Howard's End, Little Women and John Kennedy Toole's "A Conspiracy of Dunces," for which he was posthumously awarded the Pulitzer 11 years after his suicide in 1969.
BTW, this title is inspired by Jonathan Swift quote:
"When a true genius appears in the world,
You may know him by this sign, that the dunces
Are all in confederacy against him."
Jonathan Swift, "Thoughts on Various Subjects, Moral and Diverting"
"A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy balloon of a head. The green earflaps, full of large ears and uncut hair and the fine bristles that grew in the ears themselves, stuck out on either side like turn signals indicating two directions at once."
So enters one of the most memorable characters in American fiction, Ignatius J. Reilly.

J! likes this a lot and has asked for it by the first line above; by title char and by the Swift quote.
Basically I'm observing a trend in the show for the past year or more; they used to ask titles and authors; then they went to first & last lines; now they are asking plot, characters, including minor and supporting chars, chapter titles and omgosh! Quotes from text! Sigh, I'm afraid I'll have to get out all these moldy old tomes and actually OPEN them! lol enjoy your books :-)
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davey
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by davey »

goatman wrote:La Paz came instantly then I pondered former Soviet states until Alex said, "Vatoots" lol and they penalize players for pronouncing!
Instant recognition on Howard's End, Little Women and John Kennedy Toole's "A Conspiracy of Dunces," for which he was posthumously awarded the Pulitzer 11 years after his suicide in 1969.
BTW, this title is inspired by Jonathan Swift quote:
"When a true genius appears in the world,
You may know him by this sign, that the dunces
Are all in confederacy against him."
Jonathan Swift, "Thoughts on Various Subjects, Moral and Diverting"
"A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy balloon of a head. The green earflaps, full of large ears and uncut hair and the fine bristles that grew in the ears themselves, stuck out on either side like turn signals indicating two directions at once."
So enters one of the most memorable characters in American fiction, Ignatius J. Reilly.

J! likes this a lot and has asked for it by the first line above; by title char and by the Swift quote.
Basically I'm observing a trend in the show for the past year or more; they used to ask titles and authors; then they went to first & last lines; now they are asking plot, characters, including minor and supporting chars, chapter titles and omgosh! Quotes from text! Sigh, I'm afraid I'll have to get out all these moldy old tomes and actually OPEN them! lol enjoy your books :-)
We all know - check out the thread for that episode and that weekly poll, if you're sure the green cap is memorable... :)
A pet peeve - there is no asterisk in Howards End...
davey
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by davey »

TomKBaltimoreBoy wrote:You actually thought that they couldn't, Rex? I'm stunned.
I take it Rex hasn't watched much TV in the last 14 years...
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by goatman »

Sigh, lolz okays I forget you already know all this heh. BTW the City of Washington is not the same thing as the District of Columbia; DC is a federal reserve established by Constitution on land donated by Maryland and Virginia; prior to the War between the States, Virginia reneged in 1846 and took back Arlington County and the City of Alexandria in the so-called Retrocession (DC used to be a diamond, now is a broken piece of jigsaw puzzle). The City of Washington was established by the 1790 Residency Act and is one of several cities incorporated within the District, including Fort Totten, Tacoma Park, Friendship Heights, Anacostia, Tenleytown, Forest Heights, Congress heights, etc etc. In truth none of these jurisdictions exercise much real authority or have enough funds to buy lunch. Do be careful when you visit our fine city as the city government has posted cameras on every corner now which constitute the principal source of revenue for the city coffers, although little or no evidence exists that its being spent on constituent needs like roads (potholed), infrastructure (crumbling), crime (murder capital of the nation), schools (worst in the Nation) or health care (o wait mandatory insurance will fix that!) or gosh anything but lavish coke parties for Marion's cronies, sigh. Pre-requisite for our elected officials seems to be jail time... God love the dunces!
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by dhkendall »

Robert K S wrote:
econgator wrote:
dhkendall wrote:Several boardies have stated (and I still have yet to fully believe) that the name of the city the Obamas live in is "Washington, D.C." The ", D.C." is part of the city's name (apparently), "D[istrito] F[ederal] is not part of Mexico City's name.
They live in the city of Washington, which is within the District of Columbia.
Incidentally, I just read an article that points out there is no city of Washington, and there hasn't been for quite some time. Officially, it's just the District of Columbia.

I also recall reading somewhere that the reason why it's the "District of Columbia" is because Columbia was an early proposed name for the new nation that ended up not panning out. I don't know if I buy that since it's the Constitution that establishes the federal district and the Constitution doesn't really dither about what to call the country.
Columbia was an early common nickname for the country (I think in much the same way "America" is used to call your country now). Which is why a song that could be considered (at least by some anthematologists (that ones that live in Winnipeg anyways ;) )) the first unofficial national anthem of the United States was a song called Hail Columbia!
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Robert K S »

But how did it go from nickname to official name of the federal district? Why isn't it called "District of the United States"?
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by OrangeSAM »

TenPoundHammer wrote:
OrangeSAM wrote:Does the capital of Canada end in "a" or "o"?
It's Canada. Everything ends in "eh?"
Well played, Grasshopper, well played.

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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by bpmod »

davey wrote:
goatman wrote:Instant recognition on Howard's End
A pet peeve - there is no asterisk in Howards End...
And, of course, you are pointing out that goatman did not put an asterisk in Howards End, thereby not peeving you.

Brian
...but the senator, while insisting he was not intoxicated, could not explain his nudity.

If I had 50 cents for every math question I got right, I'd have $6.30 by now.
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by bpmod »

TenPoundHammer wrote:
OrangeSAM wrote:Does the capital of Canada end in "a" or "o"?
It's Canada. Everything ends in "eh?"
Yes, there's "C", eh!? "n", eh!? "d", eh!?

So, you only need, like, three letters to spell the country's name (eh!?).

Brian
...but the senator, while insisting he was not intoxicated, could not explain his nudity.

If I had 50 cents for every math question I got right, I'd have $6.30 by now.
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by davey »

bpmod wrote:
davey wrote:
goatman wrote:Instant recognition on Howard's End
A pet peeve - there is no asterisk in Howards End...
And, of course, you are pointing out that goatman did not put an asterisk in Howards End, thereby not peeving you.
I'm so peeved by unnecessary apostrophes, my unconscious tries to spare me from the word! Or something...
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Volante »

StevenH wrote:
Johnblue wrote:Entire class of people? Wtf are you talking about? And yes, the not-even-a-guess on FJ was pathetic.
Sorry, but this wasn't a clue where it was unforgivable not to have anything written down for FJ. Erik couldn't think of a city that ended in "z," so time ran out. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as he was trying hard to think of a city that fit.
Yeah...if I'm thinking for an answer, I'm not going to waste time writing down something obviously wrong. I landed on Vaduz at about 8 seconds to go, under the wire but not comfortably so...but if I wrote down Vilniuz or Canberraz just to 'have something down' that get at 0:22 would likely have gotten pushed back to 0:28, not enough time to write a -right answer- down.

(I never came up with La Paz before the reveal)
goatman wrote:La Paz came instantly then I pondered former Soviet states until Alex said, "Vatoots" lol and they penalize players for pronouncing!
Best I could hear, he said 'va-doots'...and that is how it's pronounced: vä-ˈdüts
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Vermonter »

davey wrote:
bpmod wrote:
davey wrote:
goatman wrote:Instant recognition on Howard's End
A pet peeve - there is no asterisk in Howards End...
And, of course, you are pointing out that goatman did not put an asterisk in Howards End, thereby not peeving you.
I'm so peeved by unnecessary apostrophes, my unconscious tries to spare me from the word! Or something...
IIRC there are only 5 U.S. places that have an apostrophe in the name, including Martha's Vineyard. I live on a street called St. Johns Place, which is not one of them.
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by bpmod »

davey wrote:I'm so peeved by unnecessary apostrophes, my unconscious tries to spare me from the word! Or something...
Although I, too, am peeved by unnecessary apostrophes, I very much like them when used properly. I am just as peeved when they are not used where necessary, especially in my name.

Brian
...but the senator, while insisting he was not intoxicated, could not explain his nudity.

If I had 50 cents for every math question I got right, I'd have $6.30 by now.
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by georgespelvin »

dhkendall wrote: One of the first things I noticed about you, Arthur, was that you're a guy who wanted to move the game along at all costs, you were quick in calling for categories, and quick to give answers (I'm sure that's what the Cs liked about you, and one of the reasons you got The Call). With the DD, I could tell that you were thinking "if I don't know it in the first second, I won't know it in the next 5" and bailed right then. You are definitely a very unique (I know. Shut up.) player.
I'm pretty sure that what got Arthur selected was the fact that he moved the game along, played with confidence and was quick to give responses. However, it's a good thing that Arthur did not let on that he planned to use game theory on the show or I think that he never gets on. I suspect that TPTB frown on ultra-competitive folks that want to get on Jeopardy to outwit their opponents through game theory rather than by just playing the game and see what happens. Maggie always suggests to contestants to choose categories in order, top to bottom, supposedly to benefit them, but more likely because viewers prefer "straightforward" games. Whenever someone comes along playing strategically in an overt way (as opposed to wagering thoughtfully on FJ which usually just gets a quick "interesting" comment from Alex), all hell breaks loose. The social media world is all over this. It reminds me of when David Madden was playing his games in 2005 (thankfully in the early days of social media) when he won the last 14 games of season 21 where his gameplay was torched for being hypercompetitive (yes, in some respects by me as well).

I'm very (selfishly) concerned that Arthur's play, particularly if he gets into a bunch of tie situations and Vermonter' strategy really takes hold with future contestants, will make TPTB even less likely to put on people that follow Jeopardy closely enough to know about game strategy (i.e., anyone here with one or two exceptions). I'm sure that TPTB can't be happy about paying out the extra money (perhaps that's why they were giving away $2 apps as raffle prizes at the taping last week), the negative comments from fans and the headache of worrying about whether to get more alternates. Make no mistake--Jeopardy is not Quizbowl or a pub quiz. It's for a more broad based viewing audience, which is why the knowledge base required is smaller and the attempts at entertainment are greater than what you need for the other two endeavors.

Also, Arthur, I am very surprised that TPTB let you eat with Carolyn in the commissary after your game. Remembering all of the talk in one of the threads here recently about whether contestants can collude over wagers, it is very surprising that TPTB let you eat lunch together where you could--indeed did--talk about wagering even though you would be playing in the very next game. The fact that you were kind of hoping to be offered a tie if the situation arose on Thursday (btw, I'm not saying if the situation arose or not because this thread is for Wednesday) makes you very lucky that you weren't tossed.

I am disgusted about the awful stuff that appears to have been coming onto twitter. Obviously these people are the trolls living in their mother's basement that fantasize about such things (ways to get women to get into bed with them) and figure that must have been your rationale. Don't pay any attention to them. That's why I get all my Jeopardy conversation here.
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by bpmod »

Well said, george (although you'll always be AWSOP to me). I couldn't have said it better myself.

Except for the "living in their mother's basement" part. I have now spent almost 4 months sleeping on my mother's sofa while looking for a suitable place to live. I have decided that it would be much better actually having a bed to sleep in again, so, to that end, I am building a room for myself in, you guessed it, my mother's basement.

Brian
...but the senator, while insisting he was not intoxicated, could not explain his nudity.

If I had 50 cents for every math question I got right, I'd have $6.30 by now.
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by ArthurChu »

Well... how would I have let on that I was planning to use game theory on the show? They don't actually ask you that question at any point in the audition process and it'd be weird if they did.

In point of fact I wasn't originally "planning to use game theory on the show" -- almost all of my research on J! strategy and on game theory was AFTER I got The Call, started Googling "Jeopardy strategy" and discovered the existence of websites like J! Archive, the J! Board, the Final Wager blog, etc.

I'd find it very doubtful they'd have any particular way to prevent people from doing this other than shortening the time between The Call and taping even more than it already is, or, I guess, demographically weeding out the kind of person who'd be likely to stumble upon J! Archive and take the advice there to heart whether or not they've already done so (which I can't imagine would be possible without getting rid of half their pool).

FWIW the Contestant Crew made it very clear to us that they were an entirely separate group that didn't mix at all with the folks who write the questions, adjudicate scores and sign the checks. As they put it this ensures their job can be 100% about making us happy and comfortable without queasy conflicts of interest.

And also FWIW, yes, you are encouraged to take categories from the top down and they assume most people will do so, but if they wanted to actually *prevent* the Forrest Bounce they could've done that by changing the rules of the game back in 1985 after Chuck Forrest.

For the record Maggie Speak gives a speech where she actively points out that "bouncing around" is NOT against the rules, IS frequently done by certain very successful players (she name-checks Forrest and Madden specifically IIRC) but "Don't let anyone pressure you into playing any game other than the one you came here to play".

The latter isn't just a feel-good message, either -- S&P says that while the Contestant Crew can and should try to make us happy and comfortable, trying to directly influence our strategy or gameplay in any way opens up J! to tremendous legal liability. For the same reason the Contestant Crew makes it clear they are absolutely forbidden from giving us any "advice" whatsoever on Final Jeopardy other than how Final Jeopardy works -- indeed we're encouraged not to speak to them verbally at all during FJ if we can avoid it.

So while, yes, I'm quite aware the issues you suggest probably exist, I'm much more doubtful than you that J! can influence the process as much as you're positing they might. One thing I'll point out is that the Forrest Bounce is much more unpleasant to *play* as well as to watch -- it's not just a clever thing people don't try, people probably don't do it because it's much more mentally exhausting than just taking the categories in order, and while I obviously think it's the "correct" strategy I wouldn't blame anyone for not doing it nor really expect everyone to do it. Ken Jennings was able to attain godlike status without relying on any particularly grueling or ruthless strategy, just by knowing lots of stuff (which I envy -- but as they say, "I knew Ken Jennings, I worked with Ken Jennings, Ken Jennings was a friend of mine -- and Chu, sir, is no Ken Jennings"). I'm not as concerned as you.
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by ArthurChu »

Also FTR I myself was quite aware of the possibility of getting dinged for collusion and did not at any point say to Carolyn "You should offer me a tie if I'm losing!" (Although honestly, if I did, I wouldn't be saying anything people weren't already thinking.)

All I did was somewhat incoherently try the question of "Why would you do that?" by saying "That's the mathematically correct thing to do". I'm sure I made too much of a mess of it to understand it properly.

Also while the idea of sequestering contestants in personal eating cells rather than letting them gather together is amusing I think it's impractical. And I don't see the real benefit of it -- you want to prevent contestants from getting information or advice from the outside world, but how can contestants truly "collude" while we're on the set? We could make verbal promises or agreements but we have absolutely no way of enforcing them, not even social pressure. Verbal agreements not to defect don't solve the Prisoner's Dilemma at all -- at the moment of truth Carolyn is totally free to stab me in the back no matter what we said in the commissary.
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Rex Kramer »

georgespelvin wrote:Also, Arthur, I am very surprised that TPTB let you eat with Carolyn in the commissary after your game. Remembering all of the talk in one of the threads here recently about whether contestants can collude over wagers, it is very surprising that TPTB let you eat lunch together where you could--indeed did--talk about wagering even though you would be playing in the very next game. The fact that you were kind of hoping to be offered a tie if the situation arose on Thursday (btw, I'm not saying if the situation arose or not because this thread is for Wednesday) makes you very lucky that you weren't tossed.
But the ToC finalists eat lunch together just before starting their two-game finals, and that's the same sort of situation. Whenever one of us made a reference to the game itself, our chaperone Robert would just tell us we can't talk about that. But general conversation (which I can only presume would have included game theory, if we'd thought of it) was fine.

Rex
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by georgespelvin »

ArthurChu wrote:Well... how would I have let on that I was planning to use game theory on the show? They don't actually ask you that question at any point in the audition process and it'd be weird if they did.
I only quoted the first sentence to save space and because your post is only three above this one for easy reference for people. However, I plan to address everything more or less.

Of course they don't ask people at a Jeopardy audition if they plan to use "game theory" or strategy etc. Taking your latter point on the role of the contestant coordinator to the limit, it actually would be improper for them to discuss strategy with a potential contestant or even a room of potential contestants unless they shared the same points with everyone (which they do with regard to suggesting starting from the top with categories). However, I do think that they cull out people that appear to take the game too seriously if people show that at an audition by making Jeopardy geek remarks. They want people that want to play a game show and have fun, try to win but do so in a fun and entertaining way, not as blood sport. Roger Craig is a very shy, unassuming type of guy. No one could have possibly thought at his audition that he would set an all-time record for most money won in a game and buzzsaw his way to a ToC win.

It is actually pretty easy for the Contestant Coordinators to know how closely you follow Jeopardy and strategy. In the potential contestant form you have to list all of the people that have been on the show that you know. Dr. J noted in another thread that people on the message board (presumably this one as well as Sony's) can bypass writing down a ton of names by just noting that you frequent the message board. If the Contestant Coordinators reach a conclusion that suddenly folks are going to be giving out strategic ties etc. they may decide to secretly cut down or eliminate new folks that participate on this message board. Paranoia? Perhaps, but I do worry about it.

While the CCs can't enforce strategic thinking and stress that you can do whatever you want, I think that it is clear that what they really want to do is make sure that there is an entertaining TV show for the viewers. This means making contestants comfortable and confident and maybe gently suggesting something that plays better to the home audience but, hey, we can't tell you what to do.

I can imagine that using the Forrest Bounce would be mentally taxing and increases the possibility of fatigue. I don't think that it's taking an unfair advantage at all. Also, FTR, I have no problem with searching for a DD to take it away from another player and wagering the minimum if you don't think that you will have a clue. That's just common sense, not cutthroat strategy.
I used to be AWSOP but wanted to be more theatrical.
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Re: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by georgespelvin »

ArthurChu wrote:Also FTR I myself was quite aware of the possibility of getting dinged for collusion and did not at any point say to Carolyn "You should offer me a tie if I'm losing!" (Although honestly, if I did, I wouldn't be saying anything people weren't already thinking.)

All I did was somewhat incoherently try the question of "Why would you do that?" by saying "That's the mathematically correct thing to do". I'm sure I made too much of a mess of it to understand it properly.

Also while the idea of sequestering contestants in personal eating cells rather than letting them gather together is amusing I think it's impractical. And I don't see the real benefit of it -- you want to prevent contestants from getting information or advice from the outside world, but how can contestants truly "collude" while we're on the set? We could make verbal promises or agreements but we have absolutely no way of enforcing them, not even social pressure. Verbal agreements not to defect don't solve the Prisoner's Dilemma at all -- at the moment of truth Carolyn is totally free to stab me in the back no matter what we said in the commissary.
Rex Kramer pointed out that in his ToC, the finalists (two thirds of whom I was on a pub quiz team with last week!) ate lunch together at the commissary, but that Robert steered them away about talking about the next game. So yes, I guess if you have a chaperone, you can eat together. However, talking about the immediately previous game when you are about to play the same person in the next game, particularly why you allowed a tie at the end, to me goes really, really close towards at the very least the appearance of impropriety. It's more specific than what Rex was talking about.

Obviously, even if you reached an agreement on offering a tie, there is no guarantee that one of the other of you would actually do it. That doesn't mean the discussion and the agreement wouldn't be a Standards and Practice problem.
I used to be AWSOP but wanted to be more theatrical.
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