Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[irene]

Rackme32 wrote:
Count me as one who had no shot at getting the FJ! correct. I threw up my arms when I saw the category.

Well, that's good news, yes..? (But why did you eat your arms in the first place?)

Funny...

[Mark B]

Well, I should say that I don't think "reflexes" is the right way to think about it...it's timing (which you also allude to) and "feel" (which is maybe best described as muscle memory). When you're in the zone on the buzzer, there's no thinking involved (at least for me); your body just knows how to always hit it at the right time based on the cadence of Alex's voice. This is how it was for me in much of my original run and in my ToC finals, and clearly Ken has the same skill. I know this is a pretty wishy-washy description, but I doubt that the best MLB hitters could similarly describe exactly how it is that they hit the 90+-mph fastball at just the right time either. (Brad is a little different though, as his buzzing technique is a rather violent motion; perhaps analogous to some hitters who use a big leg kick as the pitcher's releasing the ball. Sorry for the baseball analogies for the non-baseball fans! )

I recall on the order of 15-20 clues from this game (it's not in the archive yet and I don't feel like re-watching right now to get a more accurate count ) where I was ready to ring in well before Alex was finished reading, and couldn't get in. (And these were almost exclusively Ken's gets.) This was a new feeling for me. The exception being the anagrams and a couple of the spy novels. In those cases, your ideas are definitely right: Ken (and a few others who have been mentioned in this thread) have such incredible skill at figuring them out quickly that they have a big advantage. And I'll be the first to admit that Ken's knowledge base is much deeper than mine, but I maintain that that is in most cases a separate skill from his buzzer timing.

Russ, thanks for your input on this and congratulations on your great showing in this truly challenging tournament. I'll definitely add your observations to my body of thought on this fascinating subject.

If Ken really beat you to 15-20 clues that you were waiting on and you didn't beat him to any, then that's a Watson-like feat on his part (I'm on the record btw as calling the Watson team buzz-in cheaters, though Ken apparently doesn't agree!). When you think you can face the tape, I'd love to know what the real count is. I think you did beat him to the buzz a number of times, and also recall Chuck getting in at times before you and Ken. In the J round, KJ was clearly on an incredible roll and was beating you guys to the buzzer on clues you all knew easily, but that's too small a sample size to contradict my supposition.

Your batting analogy is cool, but not quite spot on I think. If you were hitting against another hitter who was competing with you for piches...

Buzzer testimonials remind me of interviews with centenarians. They're always asked how they did it and they often give completely contradictory replies. They don't know how they did it. Ken and Brad probably don't know how they do it, even if they think they do!

[waterloo_guy]

I got FJ instantly, but for an odd reason. When I was a youngster, I read a lot of science fiction, and after I read Robert Sheckley's story "Human Man's Burden," I asked my father what the title meant. Dad explained it to me. 55 years later, the information was still in my head. However, I can't remember where I left my keys this morning.

(Incidentally, anyone looking for some entertaining SF should look into Sheckley. Both his short stories and his novels are great stuff).

And I helped recall the answer courtesy of Pournelle and Dickson's "Earthman's Burden," also an SF entry.

For me, it was the 1980s board game called "Pax Britannica" which dealt with colonialism. Kipling's poem was printed in the rulebook.

[gnash]

I agree that waiting for 2 seconds vs. 3 seconds doesn't make much difference. What makes a difference is waiting vs. not waiting. The faster your recall, the more likely you will be waiting on the unlocking of the buzzer.

With great respect to India and Russ and any other J! player who perceives getting outbuzzed as being outreflexed, it would be difficult for them to test whether their perception is correct. Whenever you lose a buzzer race, it feels like you are being beaten by better reflexes.

I have experience hosting a general knowledge game in which the host can measure the reaction times of the players. I have been able to observe that the likelihood of all the players ringing in with very quick reaction times rises greatly for the easiest clues, particularly the easiest clues which can be figured out early, leaving the players time to focus on the timing of their ring-in. Imagine a softball clue like this one:

CITIES OF THE WORLD $200
This French capital city was originally called Lutetia by its Roman conquerors; Quelle horreur!

Everyone knows it's Paris after the "this French capital..." and is just waiting to ring in. The probability of the strongest player getting in first on a clue like that drops greatly compared to their getting in first on a harder clue for which another player is also trying to ring in. I stress probability of course. The stronger player's reflexes don't improve when answering the harder clue; he/she is simply more prepared (and the related more confident) to ring in.

I'm sure that Ken and Brad have great reflexes. I'm sure their reflexes help them. IMO, what makes them stand out from all the other players is most likely how consistently they are figuring out their responses before they ever start to ring in.

Well, I should say that I don't think "reflexes" is the right way to think about it...it's timing (which you also allude to) and "feel" (which is maybe best described as muscle memory). When you're in the zone on the buzzer, there's no thinking involved (at least for me); your body just knows how to always hit it at the right time based on the cadence of Alex's voice. This is how it was for me in much of my original run and in my ToC finals, and clearly Ken has the same skill. I know this is a pretty wishy-washy description, but I doubt that the best MLB hitters could similarly describe exactly how it is that they hit the 90+-mph fastball at just the right time either. (Brad is a little different though, as his buzzing technique is a rather violent motion; perhaps analogous to some hitters who use a big leg kick as the pitcher's releasing the ball. Sorry for the baseball analogies for the non-baseball fans! )

I recall on the order of 15-20 clues from this game (it's not in the archive yet and I don't feel like re-watching right now to get a more accurate count ) where I was ready to ring in well before Alex was finished reading, and couldn't get in. (And these were almost exclusively Ken's gets.) This was a new feeling for me. The exception being the anagrams and a couple of the spy novels. In those cases, your ideas are definitely right: Ken (and a few others who have been mentioned in this thread) have such incredible skill at figuring them out quickly that they have a big advantage. And I'll be the first to admit that Ken's knowledge base is much deeper than mine, but I maintain that that is in most cases a separate skill from his buzzer timing.

All of these are great insights (by both Mark and Russ). The buzzer success requires getting in the rhythm, and that in turn depends on three factors: natural sense of rhythm, reflex speed, and freedom from distractions. Anxiety about the content of the clue being typically the most significant distraction. That's why I agree with Mark that it is easier for everyone to have perfect timing when you know the answer and know that you know it.

There is little one can do about the first two factors. It is no random coincidence that the only person to consistently outbuzz Brad (not by much, but in two games) was Rick Knutsen, a musician. There is a lot one can do to improve on the third factor, but probably nothing works better than having played a lot of Jeopardy!

[cheezguyty]

It is no random coincidence that the only person to consistently outbuzz Brad (not by much, but in two games) was Rick Knutsen, a musician.

Ken had more ring-ins than Brad in four of their five meetings.

[hscer]

Should be five days until this episode re-airs, right?

If you missed this one initially and have been skipping the offseason reruns, I'd consider making an exception this coming Monday.