Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

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Dudd
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by Dudd »

lieph82 wrote:
makeabeilein wrote: Again, it's dependent on some weird assumptions, but I am well aware of how much time and scratch paper contestants have to make their wagers, and it is 1000 times more likely in my mind that a big leader (who bet almost everything she needed to; she wasn't holding back all that much) would intentionally make an odd wager to help a friend than that she would make an incorrect wager because she did the math wrong.
Then your head is a really interesting place. The intersection between "Jeopardy! contestants" and "people who are good at math" is demonstrably small.
Yes, wagering on Jeopardy is a pretty perfect example of Occam's Razor. When in doubt, it's just two former liberal arts majors who know a ton about art and literature but struggle to calculate a 20% tip.
cosmos
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by cosmos »

I kind of like the idea of contestants gambling with their own money all the time, which is a consequence of letting all of them keep their winnings. Want to take a wild guess at a $2000 clue where you don't know but need to get the clue to stay alive in the game? Fine, but you have to fork over $2000 cash if you're wrong even if you had little chance of winning the game anyway. I personally think that less cringe-worthy wild guessing makes for a better game. Heck, make them ante up a few thousand before the game so they can pay Sony back if they end with a negative total. :D But it won't happen.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by goatman »

dhkendall wrote:
lieph82 wrote:The money doesn't matter to Sony.
Agreed. They still probably have more money than Ken and Brad combined. Besides, if they need to cut costs, they can start with Wheel - as far as I can tell it gives more money (and has the potential to give more money) than J!
Gosh, idk; I spose that on any given show the payout is about the same, but on Wheel you can only play once. From a cost benefit analysis, I reckon you're right, just by daily payout if you get stupidly lucky on Wheel you could win really big, so it's a production cost outlay risk. While one contestant on J! could eventually take home big bucks, the daily outlay is probably a bit less, since the 2nd & 3rd place prizes are limited, eh? On Wheel all the contestants keep their meager winnings, which can certainly add up. But you know they earn millions from running the ads nationwide.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by bencalerod »

Here's some food for thought for those who think people should start getting their scores in cach again: lately on Wheel of Fortune, there's been a LOT of cases in which a player solves a puzzle for the house minimum of close to it when it is completely illogical to do so from a mathematical standpoint. In fact, today's game was a rare occasion in which undoubtedly no one made the poor decision of solving too early (as the first two puzzles were completely filled in before they were solved and there was no doubles left on the board when the Prize Puzzle was solved). On Friday's game, however, Chris undoubtedly made that poor decision in Round 2. He looked at the puzzle, saw that no doubles were left, so he decided to just make a quick grand and solve then and there. However, mathematically that still made no sense what-so-ever, as a) he already had $4,700 guaranteed from earlier so the extra $1,000 meant little to him utility-wise, b) there was a Prize Puzzle in the next round and his lead was small enough that if either of his opponents solved his chances of winning would be slim to none, and c) he had up to 5 opportunities to spin up either the $3,500 space or the featured prize, both of which would've helped to cement his lead. Unfortunately, like countless contestants before him, he let the flawed "grab the money as soon as I know the puzzle" and "the wheel hasn't been kind to me up til now so I won't touch it with a 10 foot pole if I don't have to" menalties win over any sense of mathimatics or strategic desire to win the game.

My point is that based on this example from Wheel of Fortune, if players get to keep their scores again, we'll be seeing quite a few safeguard their money in completely illogical ways. And if two or three players have the same mindset, we could be in for the most awkward Double Jeopardy ever on a regular basis, as hardly any of the clues would be answered by the players and Alex would just keep giving us an answer.........(10 second pause and a beep later)................and the question. That definitely would not make for entertaining television.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by Lampy »

goforthetie wrote:
Austin Powers wrote: It's perfectly within the context of the game, which comes down to buzzer races anyway.
Sure, buzzer races are necessarily a part of the game, but they're not the point of the game. All other things equal, TPTB should try to minimize their impact.
The buzzer is the way they currently distinguish between players with equivalent knowledge w.r.t. what's on the board. Well, that and DD luck. I don't agree that somehow we should be minimizing buzzer impact.

I don't care about the tie thing at all, fwiw, but I don't think we need to be arguing that Jeopardy is not about buzzing.
kingskip wrote:I don't know why they're doing this right now. I don't like this move but even if they do it why do it now? Why not wait until Alex retires in a little less than two years and bring this out when the new host starts?
Because this rule will come up so little that only a few people will think of it as anything approaching a "new era." Obviously they are trying to solve a problem. I don't think it's much of a problem but there you go.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by StrangerCoug »

bencalerod wrote:Unfortunately, like countless contestants before him, he let the flawed "grab the money as soon as I know the puzzle" and "the wheel hasn't been kind to me up til now so I won't touch it with a 10 foot pole if I don't have to" menalties win over any sense of mathimatics or strategic desire to win the game.
When I play WoF at home I sometimes get burned from the opposite problem—refusing to solve until every last consonant gets picked.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by Vanya »

goatman wrote:
dhkendall wrote:
lieph82 wrote:The money doesn't matter to Sony.
Agreed. They still probably have more money than Ken and Brad combined. Besides, if they need to cut costs, they can start with Wheel - as far as I can tell it gives more money (and has the potential to give more money) than J!
Gosh, idk; I spose that on any given show the payout is about the same, but on Wheel you can only play once. From a cost benefit analysis, I reckon you're right, just by daily payout if you get stupidly lucky on Wheel you could win really big, so it's a production cost outlay risk. While one contestant on J! could eventually take home big bucks, the daily outlay is probably a bit less, since the 2nd & 3rd place prizes are limited, eh? On Wheel all the contestants keep their meager winnings, which can certainly add up. But you know they earn millions from running the ads nationwide.
Sony pays Alex Trebek more than twice as much as they pay out in prize money.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by bencalerod »

StrangerCoug wrote:
bencalerod wrote:Unfortunately, like countless contestants before him, he let the flawed "grab the money as soon as I know the puzzle" and "the wheel hasn't been kind to me up til now so I won't touch it with a 10 foot pole if I don't have to" menalties win over any sense of mathimatics or strategic desire to win the game.
When I play WoF at home I sometimes get burned from the opposite problem—refusing to solve until every last consonant gets picked.
In cases like yesturday's 1st puzzle (virtually nothing was at risk for Ignacio) and 2nd puzzle (all doubles left towards the end and nothing massive was at stake), that's a good strategy to have, and obviously it's the dominant strategy if you land on the Express wedge, but otherwise it's a bit too risky when there's only a consonant or two left and you have a significant amount ($3,000+ in my eyes) at risk.

For instance, in Chris' (female who played yesturday) situation in the 1st round, I definitely would of salved as soon as Ps were revealed (as that's when I realized the puzzle solution). Even though there was still one double left to be found, it wasn't worth risking roughly $10,000 worth of cash and prizes just for what was likely to be an extra $1,000 to $2,000. Sure, if you landed on the $3,500 space or the other 1/2 Car space it could pay off big time, but that's only a 1 in 12 chance and you are more likely to land on a penalty space. Also, if I solved and then got control in the next 2 rounds, I would have a very good chance of getting the other 1/2 Car wedge and cementing a huge lead if I solved that puzzle.

As far as Prize Puzzles, I agree with the general contestant concensus that you should probably solve as soon as you know it. However, in some cases I'd suggest holding the solve, such as when you have a 1/2 Car wedge and there are still 2 on the wheel and/or you didn't find the Same Letter yet in a same letter puzzle. Also, I'd probably try for some cash if I'm not on the board yet, as I don't want to win JUST the trip and the $1k spending money with it as (factoring in taxes) I'd have no money for any other ambitions I had. In addition, if one of my opponents had a HUGE lead that winning the Prize Puzzle alone probably wouldn't put a huge dent in, I'd definitely try for the big opportunities on the wheel as it will most likely be my one and only chance to try to win (as Round 4 probably will be a speed-up and even if it isn't anything other than the $5,000 space won't help you much). Finally, as I previously mentioned, if you land on the Express wedge it should be a no-brainer to "hop on" it and fill in the puzzle even if you don't know it yet, for if you succeed you will almost certainly have the game in the bag, but even if you fail there's virtually 0 chance control will get back to you so it probably won't matter anyway.

I'll continue with my Wheel of fortune analysis later........... :P
hdayejr
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by hdayejr »

Do we have actually confirmation from the show about this being fact?
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by Winchell Factor »

It's a fact.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by dhkendall »

It was mentioned in today's chat in thejeopardyfan.com (which featured recent contestants) tgat it is now mentioned in contestant briefings.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by Winchell Factor »

dhkendall wrote:It was mentioned in today's chat in thejeopardyfan.com (which featured recent contestants) tgat it is now mentioned in contestant briefings.
Indeed. I haven't heard it broadcast this month, but I have missed the early minutes of an episode or two because of football. But I heard the new rules laid out in a pre-game contestant briefing a few weeks ago. As you might imagine, the finer points of the explanation were almost drowned out by the sound of contestants' jaws hitting the floor.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by Bamaman »

I'm surprised they didn't mention it on the air. Not everyone reads this message board (though I can't understand why), watches Keith's video or follows social media in general. It will be a big shock to a lot of people the next time we have a tie and they whip out the tie breaker answer.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by Winchell Factor »

I was briefly surprised that the rule went into effect without Alex's mentioning it, but upon some reflection, I can't see why he would, really.

Nobody at home--except the people whose hobby is critiquing Jeopardy! contestants' wagering and game play (and they probably read this and other sites anyway)--needs to know about the change until there is a tie, and Alex can explain the rule change to viewers then. Moreover, as others have pointed out in this thread, that could be a good long time, now that the player in the lead will rarely have any incentive to bet himself or herself into a tie. Meanwhile, less time explaining leaves more time for playing the game.
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Robert K S
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by Robert K S »

Do we really know for certain that the rule went into effect immediately after the ToC, as opposed to, say, a couple weeks later (airdate-wise)? Did TPTB tell the ToCers, "Oh, BWT, the rule is changed as of next show" or something like that?
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by dhkendall »

Robert K S wrote:Do we really know for certain that the rule went into effect immediately after the ToC, as opposed to, say, a couple weeks later (airdate-wise)? Did TPTB tell the ToCers, "Oh, BWT, the rule is changed as of next show" or something like that?
Again, i seem to recall from the chat that Jennifer Healey said it was mentioned at her Green Room briefing as coming into effect then. You'd have to watch the video for a more definitive source than "my fuzzy memory of an event from a few hours ago"
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by Winchell Factor »

Robert K S wrote:Do we really know for certain that the rule went into effect immediately after the ToC, as opposed to, say, a couple weeks later (airdate-wise)? Did TPTB tell the ToCers, "Oh, BWT, the rule is changed as of next show" or something like that?
I know this (but no more): I learned in the green room before taping that there would be no more ties on Jeopardy!. I was taping during the first week that ToC was being broadcast. I have heard that the change went into effect after ToC, but:

1. I have no direct knowledge of that, only Internet hearsay; and
2. I have just assumed that "after the ToC" means "beginning with the games that taped after the TofC taped," but that's just my interpretation of the aforementioned Internet hearsay.

But I can guarantee you that, announcement or not, the rule change will be in effect for games airing the week of Dec. 22 (if not before, as I believe to be the case).
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by Robert K S »

There remains the possibility that last week's regular play games, aired between the ToC and Kids Week, were taped before the ToC, with Alex's results-aware intro being re-recorded post-ToC to complete the TV magic. And thus, we might be getting a rule change announcement next Monday after Kids Week, for the first games taped with the new rule.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by dhkendall »

Robert K S wrote:There remains the possibility that last week's regular play games, aired between the ToC and Kids Week, were taped before the ToC, with Alex's results-aware intro being re-recorded post-ToC to complete the TV magic. And thus, we might be getting a rule change announcement next Monday after Kids Week, for the first games taped with the new rule.
I'm pretty sure I saw someone in last Monday's thread who played the game comment how Alex spoiled the results with his intro, taped before the player could watch the TOC.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by MarkBarrett »

dhkendall wrote:
Robert K S wrote:There remains the possibility that last week's regular play games, aired between the ToC and Kids Week, were taped before the ToC, with Alex's results-aware intro being re-recorded post-ToC to complete the TV magic. And thus, we might be getting a rule change announcement next Monday after Kids Week, for the first games taped with the new rule.
I'm pretty sure I saw someone in last Monday's thread who played the game comment how Alex spoiled the results with his intro, taped before the player could watch the TOC.
Right, page 1 of the 11/24/14 thread:

Re: Monday, November 24, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]
by southsidehitman » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:03 pm

I was at this series of tapings (curse you, Trebek, for spoiling the TOC result six weeks early!)


So week of 11/24 - 28 games taped on week of Oct. 6
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