TD 147: It's Elementary!

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Woof
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by Woof »

10. Name one of the 12 most abundant elements in the Earth's crust.
Now on to our two chemical abundance questions with gamawire still holding on to the lead. As I'm on metered time right now, I'll have to deal with the questions that have arisen tomorrow.

Silicon - 9
amorris525
boson
crazymatt1
debramc
immaf
jeff6286
Peggles
RandyG
Turd Ferguson

Aluminum - 3
dhkendall
fowlerism
seaborgium

Calcium - 3
econgator
jpahk
Vanya

Oxygen - 3
Bob78164
goforthetie
soxfan99

Iron - 2
Creed Bratton
TreehugginCowgirl

Hydrogen - 1
Magna

Manganese - 1
earendel

Phosphorus - 1
ChemTeacher

Potasium - 1
Paucle

Sodium - 1
Gamawire

Titanium - 1
Austin Powers

DROP - 0
Aggron
DadofTwins
Doug527
Uncle Jeff
Volante
xxaaaxx

Unused Answers
Magnesium

Incorrect Answers - 14
Carbon - TheSpiceWeasel
Nitrogen - BigDaddyJ, Bamaman
Sulfur - bomtr
Shyttium - tagNV

Scores After Round 10
gamawire 21
Paucle 23
Vanya 24
soxfan99 28
xxaaaxx 33
DadofTwins 35
Turd Ferguson 35
Austin Powers 36
Magna 36
Bob78164 41
earendel 41
goforthetie 42
TreehugginCowgirl 42
Bamaman 43
dhkendall 43
ChemTeacher 44
fowlerism 44
jpahk 44
Uncle Jeff 44
amorris525 45
Peggles 45
Creed Bratton 49
jeff6286 49
Aggron 50
RandyG 51
Doug527 52
Volante 53
BigDaddyJ 54
boson 54
seaborgium 54
debramc 55
econgator 56
crazymatt1 57
TheSpiceWeasel 57
bomtr 59
immaf 60
tagNV 122

ETA: Corrected the omission of gamawire's singleton.
Last edited by Woof on Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Paucle
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by Paucle »

What was Gamawire's singleton? 10 given, one unused, and no Gama listed
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gamawire
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by gamawire »

Paucle wrote:What was Gamawire's singleton? 10 given, one unused, and no Gama listed
Just what I was about to ask!
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by gamawire »

gamawire wrote:
Paucle wrote:What was Gamawire's singleton? 10 given, one unused, and no Gama listed
Just what I was about to ask!
I just looked at my responses - I said sodium, which I don't see on Woof's list.
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by RandyG »

Woof wrote:10. Name one of the 12 most abundant elements in the Earth's crust.
...
Incorrect Answers - 14
Shyttium - tagNV
That's the most abundant element on the crust rather than in the crust.
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by TheSpiceWeasel »

Volante wrote:
fowlerism wrote:
Woof wrote:Unused Answers
Cerium (from Ceres, the Roman goddess of agriculture)
Iridium (from Iris, the Greek goddess of the rainbow)
Uranium :shock: (from Uranus the planet -- stop me when you've heard this before...)
Out of curiosity, would Palladium have been accepted? Was that what you were eluding to in the clarification of Question 1?
Looks like (having looked up the history of the name).

Basically if the name is the same, it counts, even if there's an intermediary step. (Pallas the asteroid and Pallas the mythological figure share the same name. If the asteroid was named 'Pallasoid' after 'Pallas', and the element then became 'Pallasoidium', that doesn't count.)
I would argue then that Gadolinium doesn't count. According to wiki, "It is named for gadolinite, one of the minerals in which it was found, in turn named for chemist Johan Gadolin." Isn't that like Pallasoidium from Pallasoid?
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Volante
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by Volante »

TheSpiceWeasel wrote:
Volante wrote: Basically if the name is the same, it counts, even if there's an intermediary step. (Pallas the asteroid and Pallas the mythological figure share the same name. If the asteroid was named 'Pallasoid' after 'Pallas', and the element then became 'Pallasoidium', that doesn't count.)
I would argue then that Gadolinium doesn't count. According to wiki, "It is named for gadolinite, one of the minerals in which it was found, in turn named for chemist Johan Gadolin." Isn't that like Pallasoidium from Pallasoid?
My guess is if it was gadoliniteium, yes.
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by jeff6286 »

Woof wrote:10. Name one of the 12 most abundant elements in the Earth's crust.

Incorrect Answers - 14
Carbon - TheSpiceWeasel
Looking at the various lists on Wikipedia, there could be an argument for Carbon here. For some reason the abundance of carbon varies greatly from source to source, from as little as 200 parts per million to as much as 1800. The 1800 figure places carbon as the 10th most abundant element, ahead of hydrogen, phosphorous, and manganese. The source of that list, webelements.com, does state that the data from given sources can vary wildly, and claims that its list is based on an averaging process of figures from 8 different sources. It seems odd to me that their 8 sources could give an average as high as 1800 when none of the other sources listed on Wikipedia are higher than 940, but this is certainly not my field of expertise so I have no idea what kind of factors would account for these wildly variant figures. I do think that, given that there is not a community-wide consensus on which elements are the 12 most abundant, credit should be given for the answer of carbon. (Unless someone knows of a reason why that source should be considered less than credible, which is certainly possible. Maybe they made a mistake in averaging the data from their 8 sources, or maybe it should be obvious for a scientific mind to dismiss a source with data so vastly different from the rest. Hopefully someone smarter than me can possibly shed some light on this subject.)
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by Magna »

At last! A singleton! The moral for me is to go for the one I think will be the sheepy answer.
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by Magna »

Vanya wrote:Americium is suspect as well. It wasn't named for its place of discovery, but that it's below Europium on the table.
I debated asking for a clarification on this one before answering, but after I re-read the question, it clearly fit. It was discovered in the Americas and was named for the Americas. The reason for giving it that name wasn't the typical one, but the question didn't ask about that.
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by Woof »

Sorry for the delay, folks, but traveling halfway around the globe in the last 24 hours will do that (not to mention the tales of delayed flights, nearly missed connections and lost luggage). In any event, expect the denouement tomorrow night, along with appeals given due consideration.
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

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TheSpiceWeasel wrote:I would argue then that Gadolinium doesn't count. According to wiki, "It is named for gadolinite, one of the minerals in which it was found, in turn named for chemist Johan Gadolin." Isn't that like Pallasoidium from Pallasoid?
This is the danger with relying too heavily on Wikipedia for such matters. In this case, I considered the following quote:

"As the name for the element of atomic number 96 we should like to propose "curium" , with symbol Cm. The evidence indicates that element 96 contains seven 5f electrons and is thus analogous to the element gadolinium with its seven 4f electrons in the regular rare earth series. On this base element 96 is named after the Curies in a manner analogous to the naming of gadolinium, in which the chemist Gadolin was honored."

-- Glenn T. Seaborg, 1948

In matters of naming elements, I'll defer to Dr. Seaborg at all times. I strongly doubt that he made such a statement without a good deal of inside knowledge about the motivations of the namers. Moreover, although I did specify in the rules for question 1 that indirect naming would only be allowable if the name was identical (basically to avoid undue neg bait with the ones named for celestial bodies that bore mythological names) I made no such rule for question 3. I didn't extend that rule because of the vagaries of deciding whether something was named for a mineral that was named for a person or the person him/herself. I am trying to be inclusive here.
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by Austin Powers »

Woof wrote:
TheSpiceWeasel wrote:I would argue then that Gadolinium doesn't count. According to wiki, "It is named for gadolinite, one of the minerals in which it was found, in turn named for chemist Johan Gadolin." Isn't that like Pallasoidium from Pallasoid?
This is the danger with relying too heavily on Wikipedia for such matters. In this case, I considered the following quote:

"As the name for the element of atomic number 96 we should like to propose "curium" , with symbol Cm. The evidence indicates that element 96 contains seven 5f electrons and is thus analogous to the element gadolinium with its seven 4f electrons in the regular rare earth series. On this base element 96 is named after the Curies in a manner analogous to the naming of gadolinium, in which the chemist Gadolin was honored."

-- Glenn T. Seaborg, 1948

In matters of naming elements, I'll defer to Dr. Seaborg at all times. I strongly doubt that he made such a statement without a good deal of inside knowledge about the motivations of the namers. Moreover, although I did specify in the rules for question 1 that indirect naming would only be allowable if the name was identical (basically to avoid undue neg bait with the ones named for celestial bodies that bore mythological names) I made no such rule for question 3. I didn't extend that rule because of the vagaries of deciding whether something was named for a mineral that was named for a person or the person him/herself. I am trying to be inclusive here.
Boom! Not a big fan of the argument that one of your opponent's answers should be marked wrong, too.
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by TheSpiceWeasel »

jeff6286 wrote:
Woof wrote:10. Name one of the 12 most abundant elements in the Earth's crust.

Incorrect Answers - 14
Carbon - TheSpiceWeasel
Looking at the various lists on Wikipedia, there could be an argument for Carbon here. For some reason the abundance of carbon varies greatly from source to source, from as little as 200 parts per million to as much as 1800. The 1800 figure places carbon as the 10th most abundant element, ahead of hydrogen, phosphorous, and manganese. The source of that list, webelements.com, does state that the data from given sources can vary wildly, and claims that its list is based on an averaging process of figures from 8 different sources. It seems odd to me that their 8 sources could give an average as high as 1800 when none of the other sources listed on Wikipedia are higher than 940, but this is certainly not my field of expertise so I have no idea what kind of factors would account for these wildly variant figures. I do think that, given that there is not a community-wide consensus on which elements are the 12 most abundant, credit should be given for the answer of carbon. (Unless someone knows of a reason why that source should be considered less than credible, which is certainly possible. Maybe they made a mistake in averaging the data from their 8 sources, or maybe it should be obvious for a scientific mind to dismiss a source with data so vastly different from the rest. Hopefully someone smarter than me can possibly shed some light on this subject.)
FWIW, my rationale for guessing Carbon was thinking about all of the fossil fuels buried underneath the surface, and how they are all basically long strings of C's with some H's and O's around them.
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by TheSpiceWeasel »

Austin Powers wrote:
Woof wrote:
TheSpiceWeasel wrote:I would argue then that Gadolinium doesn't count. According to wiki, "It is named for gadolinite, one of the minerals in which it was found, in turn named for chemist Johan Gadolin." Isn't that like Pallasoidium from Pallasoid?
This is the danger with relying too heavily on Wikipedia for such matters. In this case, I considered the following quote:

"As the name for the element of atomic number 96 we should like to propose "curium" , with symbol Cm. The evidence indicates that element 96 contains seven 5f electrons and is thus analogous to the element gadolinium with its seven 4f electrons in the regular rare earth series. On this base element 96 is named after the Curies in a manner analogous to the naming of gadolinium, in which the chemist Gadolin was honored."

-- Glenn T. Seaborg, 1948

In matters of naming elements, I'll defer to Dr. Seaborg at all times. I strongly doubt that he made such a statement without a good deal of inside knowledge about the motivations of the namers. Moreover, although I did specify in the rules for question 1 that indirect naming would only be allowable if the name was identical (basically to avoid undue neg bait with the ones named for celestial bodies that bore mythological names) I made no such rule for question 3. I didn't extend that rule because of the vagaries of deciding whether something was named for a mineral that was named for a person or the person him/herself. I am trying to be inclusive here.
Boom! Not a big fan of the argument that one of your opponent's answers should be marked wrong, too.
That wasn't my intention at all. I remembered from college learning that Gadolinium was named so because it was discovered in gadolinite. However, I never knew (nor bothered to wonder) where gadolinite got its name from. I hadn't even heard of Johan Gadolin until I looked that up a few days ago.
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by Austin Powers »

TheSpiceWeasel wrote: That wasn't my intention at all. I remembered from college learning that Gadolinium was named so because it was discovered in gadolinite. However, I never knew (nor bothered to wonder) where gadolinite got its name from. I hadn't even heard of Johan Gadolin until I looked that up a few days ago.
No worries. I'm actually surprised carbon wasn't right FWIW.
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

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jeff6286 wrote:
Woof wrote:10. Name one of the 12 most abundant elements in the Earth's crust.

Incorrect Answers - 14
Carbon - TheSpiceWeasel
Looking at the various lists on Wikipedia, there could be an argument for Carbon here. For some reason the abundance of carbon varies greatly from source to source, from as little as 200 parts per million to as much as 1800. The 1800 figure places carbon as the 10th most abundant element, ahead of hydrogen, phosphorous, and manganese. The source of that list, webelements.com, does state that the data from given sources can vary wildly, and claims that its list is based on an averaging process of figures from 8 different sources. It seems odd to me that their 8 sources could give an average as high as 1800 when none of the other sources listed on Wikipedia are higher than 940, but this is certainly not my field of expertise so I have no idea what kind of factors would account for these wildly variant figures. I do think that, given that there is not a community-wide consensus on which elements are the 12 most abundant, credit should be given for the answer of carbon. (Unless someone knows of a reason why that source should be considered less than credible, which is certainly possible. Maybe they made a mistake in averaging the data from their 8 sources, or maybe it should be obvious for a scientific mind to dismiss a source with data so vastly different from the rest. Hopefully someone smarter than me can possibly shed some light on this subject.)
Your point is a valid one. The problem, of course, is that no one can analyze the entirety of the Earth's crust to arrive at definitive numbers for the amounts of each element present. Instead, what is done is to analyze a collection of minerals that approximates their relative abundance in the Earth's crust, thereby giving you an inferred value. I suspect (without definite knowledge) that the variation shown in the amounts of elements present in the various studies is due to differing assumptions about the makeup of the crust. If one averages the figures given in the various studies, here's what one gets:

O 464,420 ± 10,000 ppm
Si 276,640 ± 6,000
Al 81,660 ± 1,000
Fe 52,160 ± 10,000
Ca 43,640 ± 7,000
Na 25,080 ± 3,000
Mg 23,400 ± 5,000
K 21,720 ± 5,000
Ti 5,700 ± 1,000
H 1,425 ± 100
P 1,110 ± 150
Mn 980 ± 100
F 633 ± 300
Ba 441 ± 100
C 744 ± 500

From this list, I take away two facts. First of all, carbon could rank as high as #13 aggregate, but on balance would not seem to be as abundant as either H, P or Mn. Secondly, though the associated uncertainties in these averages, indicative of the scatter in the data, are rather large, carbon's is anomalously high (~ 75%) which to me indicates the presence of an outlier value, which in this case would be the webelements estimate.

In retrospect, I should have used a particular list as the definitive source for this TD and I apologize for not doing so and thus introducing some uncertainty into the process. Having said that, though, it looks to me like carbon is pretty much a consensus 13-15 on the list.
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by Woof »

11. Name one of the 12 most abundant elements in the human body.
Down to the second of the relative abundance questions with gamawire still holding off a determined charge by Paucle. Who will emerge on top after question 11? By now, we've all given up trying to predict the sheep responses, but who would have expected the singletons that emerged here, or what went unanswered? An kudos to all on another question free of incorrect responses. Well done!

Calcium - 9
Aggron
Creed Bratton
dhkendall
econgator
jeff6286
Magna
Peggles
RandyG
TheSpiceWeasel

Phosphorus - 6
Bob78164
debramc
Doug527
jpahk
seaborgium
Uncle Jeff

Sulfur - 5
Austin Powers
earendel
immaf
Vanya
Volante

Nitrogen - 3
BigDaddyJ
boson
Turd Ferguson

Hydrogen - 2
Bamaman
TreehugginCowgirl

Iron - 2
amorris525
soxfan99

Sodium - 2
crazymatt1
xxaaaxx

Carbon - 1 :o
gamawire

Magnesium - 1
bomtr

Oxygen - 1 :shock:
DadofTwins

Potassium - 1
Paucle

DROP - 0
ChemTeacher
fowlerism
goforthetie

Unused Answers
Chlorine

"Incorrect" Answers - 14
approachingdeadline - tagNV
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by Woof »

goforthetie wrote:
"Poor metal" doesn't appear as a category on the "Chemical elements" wiki page, so you're within your rights to neg me, but the following URL does work, linking to a sub-category of post-transition metals. Any mercy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_metals#Poor_metals
Live and learn! 32 years and counting as a member of the ACS and this is the first time that I've heard of that term. It appears to be synonymous with post-transition metals, which I counted, so it looks good enough for me.
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Re: TD 147: It's Elementary!

Post by Paucle »

I just got back to back singletons using the same answer. Now I don't hate my four massive daily K-pills so much.
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