Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Frank Hardy
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Frank Hardy »

With three wins & $37,400, Dan moves into ninth place in the 2011-13 ToC standings.
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billy pilgrim
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by billy pilgrim »

billy pilgrim wrote:
goforthetie wrote:
lisa0012 wrote:Why was Vatican City wrong? I checked, and it uses the Euro. I don't have the wording anymore, but how was it otherwise excluded?
The clue specified UN Member, which is kind of a lame way of J! to cut down on the number of answers. Thankfully it didn't matter for two reasons - one, she didn't write it legibly, and two, she still would have been in third place had they credited her, if I'm remembering correctly.
Actually the clue specified a non-member of the Europen Union. Vatican City was correct, she just didn't write it.
No, after the last contestant Alex listed the four correct answers, and VC wasn't in there, so her neg wasn't the issue.[/quote]
Somehow i missed the UN part. Glad i did. Came up with Monaco. I'm not sure I would have if having to wonder if it was in the UN.
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jeff6286 »

I thought for a time in DJ that I had picked up on what Kerr's strategy was with jumping to the top of the board repeatedly, and I thought it might just have been a stroke of genius, one which I had never considered before. If a player suddenly finds himself or herself "in the zone" with the buzzer, and is hitting that magical sweet spot just after the clue is finished and before the other players can ring in, it makes a lot of sense to try to hit as many low-value clues as possible while you are in that zone. Assuming that you know all the correct responses, you could wipe out the top 2 or 3 boxes in 3 or 4 different categories and rack up a pretty sizable lead without either of your opponents ever gaining control of the board. Of course, if your opponent(s) pick up all of the $1,600 and $2,000 clues, this plan isn't going to be all that fruitful for you, but if Kerr had hit at least one of the DDs during his early-DJ hot streak, the scores may have ended up looking quite different heading into FJ.

Here's how the first half of DJ played out. After being shut out of the first 3 clues in ACLU, Kerr picked up the $1600 clue, then he also got the next 7 clues, going 400, 800, 1200 in "IX" Factor, then 400 in Biblical Idols, then 400, 800, 1200 in The Midwest. This is about when I thought I had figured out his strategy, and thought he would then jump to the top of either Jazz Pianists or It's a Cover-Up, to try to pick up the easy clues in the upper boxes of those categories. He instead made a fatal mistake, going for 1600 in The Midwest, and Dan picked up on trilobite as the state fossil. The next clue was the Cedar River DD, and Dan essentially cruised the rest of the game into the pre-FJ lead.

So it is an interesting theory. I'm pretty sure I've heard from many players before that the buzzer timing can sometimes come and go. If you know you've got it and you are in that groove, why not try to clear off as much of the board as you can. Keep your momentum, keep your opponents off the board, there's no chance they'll get a DD, and the more buzzer races in a row you win, your opponents are going to become more and more frustrated, which may just make them less likely to beat you on the next race. If you start jumping to the 1600 or 2000 clues and don't know some of them, the break in momentum may cost you that buzzer mojo, and then when 5 or 6 more easy clues get chosen later in the round, you may not be able to get it back. It's a fascinating concept, and I would love to hear some others' opinions on it, especially those who have actually been on the show and have firsthand experience with the buzzer. Even if this wasn't actually Kerr's strategy, and just one that I incorrectly interpreted in his actions, it still seems like it could be a decent gameplan in some situations.
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Bob78164 »

This game is a draw for the Weak Form of Shore's Conjecture. The second-place player bet "small." --Bob
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by marpocky »

Instaget of all instagets on FJ, but that's right in my wheelhouse.
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by MarkBarrett »

Duke Ellington for me on more of an 80/20 than the usual 50/50. Once Basie was guessed the clue should have been rebounded.

Dan is showing there are many paths to victory. Tonight he needed to help himself and he needed help from an opponent. I don't know if the break in taping will do Dan any good, but it's probably welcome from his buzzer. Fred Frank and Jeff Stewart must be laughing if they still watch the show.

The FJ clue was only going to be a guessing game for me. I knew not to guess Vatican City, but after that it was pick something small. I went with Liechtenstein. If the clue had asked for three I would have added San Marino and Andorra. Oh well, I'm fortunate I solved Wednesday's clue to avoid a skunk for the week.
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by dhkendall »

billy pilgrim wrote:Somehow i missed the UN part. Glad i did. Came up with Monaco. I'm not sure I would have if having to wonder if it was in the UN.
Well, as jeff pointed out, nowadays at least, you only have to remember very few countries that are on the "not UN members" list, and the Vatican is the only one that's pretty-much universally recognized as a country (it even has more recognition than some UN members!) So, except for the Vatican, pretty much if there's any question at all about it being a country, it's not a UN member.
bomtr wrote:I had FJ twice over, but you have to wonder just what their definition of 'small country' is. That's just a bit vague.
Same here, I was relieved to see FJ (thanks, TPTB, for saving me from an 0/5 week!) and figured I'd show off by getting all four. "All right, we got Andorra, Monaco, San Marino, and the Va .. wait a minute, not a UN member. Let's see, Liechtenstein? Luxembourg? No, it's definitely an EU member and I'd say it might be a little too big to be considered "small". Gah! That's all the European microstates! [I had forgotten about Malta, but had I remembered would probably have ruled it out under the same grounds Luxembourg was ruled out (it is the biggest European microstate, for one)] Guess I'll have to go with Liechtenstein as the fourth, but no way that's going as my answer. San Marino it is." I was quite surprised to see Montenegro considered a "small country". Sure, by US standards (but then, what isn't?), but by European standards, it holds its own. Heck, it's almost 3 times larger than the European microstates put together!
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by marpocky »

dhkendall wrote:I was quite surprised to see Montenegro considered a "small country". Sure, by US standards (but then, what isn't?), but by European standards, it holds its own. Heck, it's almost 3 times larger than the European microstates put together!
What? It's still pretty small, even by European standards. After the microstates and Luxembourg, it's the next smallest. It's about 1/5 the size of the median (Ireland) and 1/40 the size of the mean (roughly, France).

ETA: Forgot about Cyprus, which is sometimes considered part of Europe (and is indeed in the EU), and is about 2/3 the size of Montenegro.

ETA2: For comparison with US standards, it's a little larger than Connecticut.
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by stevo4212 »

The Vatican doesn't use the euro? Really? Italians have to change currency when they enter the Vatican?
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by stevo4212 »

So, your response to my comment is that the Vatican is not a member of the UN. I say, it is a permanent observer, so, shame on Jeopardy for expecting a lay person to be able to distinguish between a member and a "permanent observer." They need to at least include a statement that "member" is defined strictly in this case, according to the UN definition. There really aren't any non-members of the UN; can you think of one? (Palestine and the Vatican? Has Gaza become a UN member? There are probably a number of places that have not obtained full recognition yet. How about South Sudan?)

There was not much of a point to that question anyway. There are many who don't support the idea of the European Union, so why would those people waste their time memorizing a list of EU member states?

I would be more interested in knowing the EU members who don't use the Euro. What is the point of being a member of the EU, but not using the common currency? I think that country will be dragged down with the rest of Europe no matter what they call its currency.

Since I've already made some controversial remarks, let me add that I have a question about Ken Jennings. In the first game he played, he wrote the response to FJ, "Who is Jones?" Did we already settle the question of how that qualifies as a correct question? There are many people named Jones, on what universe is, Jones sufficiently uniquely identifying? This goes to my point yesterday, that someone could be destined for J! greatness, but still lose in his first time out.
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by dhkendall »

stevo4212 wrote:The Vatican doesn't use the euro? Really? Italians have to change currency when they enter the Vatican?
Nope, the Vatican uses the Euro, but isn't an EU member. (Had to get special permission from the EU to use the Euro, since before the euro was introduced the Vatican used Italian lira its hands were kind of tied when Italy started to use the Euro.)
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by dhkendall »

stevo4212 wrote:There really aren't any non-members of the UN; can you think of one? (Palestine and the Vatican? Has Gaza become a UN member?
Depends on how you define "country", there is no cut and dried answer to that question (contrary to popular belief). The Vatican is the only country with widespread recognition (read: over 100 countries recognizing it) not a member. Palestine (or rather the Palestinian Authority) is an observer I believe, but not a member. Gaza isn't usually considered on its own, but rather as part of the Palestinian-controlled areas. There's also Kosovo as a non-UN member. And Taiwan. And Western Sahara. And Somaliland. And Abkhazia. Now you see the slippery slope we're getting down as to what a "country" is?
stevo4212 wrote:There are probably a number of places that have not obtained full recognition yet. How about South Sudan?)
UN recognition came the same week I believe as South Sudanese independence, since South Sudan's independence was pretty straightforward (that is, the country it was leaving didn't have too many objections, and was one of the first to recognize it) there were no problems impeding its way unlike, say, Kosovo.
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Vanya »

jeff6286 wrote: Did anyone else notice the way Alex pronounced "Pianists"? He did it with a short a sound, sounding more like piano than the way the word is normally pronounced. Perhaps he can't say it the usual way without snickering? :mrgreen:
That's the way I pronounce it (as Alex did), and it's the preferred pronunciation at dictionary.com.
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

Thought of Vatican City, considered Monaco and San Marino, stuck with Vatican City. That was disappointing, as well as Kerr's wager. But I was glad to see a game that was overall played better than most of what we saw this week.
MarkBarrett wrote:Dan is showing there are many paths to victory. Tonight he needed to help himself and he needed help from an opponent.
He didn't really need to help himself all that much, assuming he knows how to wager while trailing from two-thirds or better. He would just have had to enter FJ in a close second to Kerr.

If Amy had gotten her DD right, she would have entered FJ with $4,800. Kerr likely would have ended up with $9,700 as a result, enough to win the game even if Dan had made the minimum cover bet.
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jeff6286 »

Vanya wrote:
jeff6286 wrote: Did anyone else notice the way Alex pronounced "Pianists"? He did it with a short a sound, sounding more like piano than the way the word is normally pronounced. Perhaps he can't say it the usual way without snickering? :mrgreen:
That's the way I pronounce it (as Alex did), and it's the preferred pronunciation at dictionary.com.
Huh. I could have sworn that earlier I looked on some dictionary site and it only had one pronunciation, but now every site I check has two, the first being the one Alex used, with a short "a" sound and the accent on the second syllable, and the second being the one I am more used to hearing, with a "schwa" sound and the accent on the first syllable. I withdraw my question, as apparently that is the primary pronunciation by most sources. I don't know why I always thought the secondary way was the "correct" one.
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The writers: mens rea

Post by Sage on the Hudson »

Have the writers finally lost it and gone insane?

The category "Man: Ray" was fine and logical for four clues; each correct response contained the letters "r-a-y" in that order.

Then came the final clue (at this point I can't remember whether it was $1000 or $2000, Jeopardy or Double Jeopardy), in which the correct response (a triple-stumper, what a surprise) was "What's Brain Trust?"

Granted that "brain" contains a three-letter homophone for "r-a-y," but there was nothing in the explanation of the category that suggested that that might occur. It is, moreover, so far afield from what the show usually does (linking the visual of hidden letters with the clue's solution) that it seems either wildly improbable or sadistic that the writers would abandon a clue-response relationship that had been established over the first five clues.

Are they crazy, or am I just forgetting something?
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by whoisalexjacob »

Sage on the Hudson: There was a guy named Ray in the text of the clue.

Props to Dan making the big DD bet. He wasn't that far behind, but I have a feeling he was impressed by Kerr's performance to that point, and figured he'd need a huge score to have the lead at the end.

Kerr's buzzing, delivery, general presence was impressive. There was a point when he was hammering them on the buzzer, and I thought to myself, "both of them have got to be so rattled right now." But he's done. The Jeopardy gods, so to speak, gave him another chance, but he didn't have the logic skills to close it out. Dan's played well over 3 games, but I might not peg him as the favorite if he had to play Kerr again. Of course, he won't have to.

Good luck to heisman playing spoiler and Dan going for a crucial #4. Hopefully you'll tie.
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Re: Friday, April 20, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by stevo4212 »

jeff6286 wrote:The category "Man: Ray" was fine and logical for four clues; each correct response contained the letters "r-a-y" in that order.
Generally, if the letter sequence is written in quotes, then all correct answers in that category will contain that letter sequence. Otherwise, the answers do not need to contain that letter sequence.

In this case, "Ray" was not written in quotes on the board. So, that would suggest, only that somewhere in each clue or in the answer, a man named Ray will show up. I think in this case, someone named Ray was a member of JFK's brain trust.
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Re: The writers: mens rea

Post by seaborgium »

Sage on the Hudson wrote:Have the writers finally lost it and gone insane?

The category "Man: Ray" was fine and logical for four clues; each correct response contained the letters "r-a-y" in that order.

Then came the final clue (at this point I can't remember whether it was $1000 or $2000, Jeopardy or Double Jeopardy), in which the correct response (a triple-stumper, what a surprise) was "What's Brain Trust?"
Maybe they thought that since they got "What is Greyhound?" ($200) by you without complaint, they could sneak another one past at the end.
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Re: The writers: mens rea

Post by Sage on the Hudson »

seaborgium wrote:Maybe they thought that since they got "What is Greyhound?" ($200) by you without complaint, they could sneak another one past at the end.
If such a clue had appeared as a FJ, contestants responding "What's Grayhound?" would not be penalized for spelling. Similarly, if one were taking the category's heading of '"ray" literally, one might imagine that the name of the bus company actually met that criterion, so pointing out that the bus line is actually spelled Greyhound is irrelevant. The fact remains that the category, and the writers who conceived it, are lacking in sense, to put it politely.
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