Thursday, June 7, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[Vanya]

So, what's the verdict: is The Russian Ballet acceptable?

Need to know before taking the "FJs for the Week" poll. I want the Guesstimania results to be accurate!

The correct translation is Russian Ballets. So is singular Russian Ballet acceptable? I vote no.

[jeff6286]

It seems to me that it would be awful nitpicky to accept Russian Ballets but not Russian Ballet. I could see them not accepting either if they feel that the translation is not the actual name of the company, but I would have been surprised if they had accepted one but not the other had both Russian Ballet and Russian Ballets been given as responses. We'll never know for sure of course, but I see no reason that someone shouldn't give himself/herself credit if they said "Russian Ballet".

[bpmod]

It seems to me that it would be awful nitpicky to accept Russian Ballets but not Russian Ballet. I could see them not accepting either if they feel that the translation is not the actual name of the company, but I would have been surprised if they had accepted one but not the other had both Russian Ballet and Russian Ballets been given as responses. We'll never know for sure of course, but I see no reason that someone shouldn't give himself/herself credit if they said "Russian Ballet".

I tend to think that there would be a very big difference. I think it's akin to how Revelations is not acceptable, but Revelation is. (Not for this clue, of course.)

Brian

[Vanya]

So what if someone answered "the protagonist of this novel is Raskolnikov" with "what is Crimes and Punishment?"?

[Austin Powers]

Did anyone who put "The Russian Ballet" actually know about this entity - Diaghilev, Nijinsky, Fokine, etc - and just thought this was what it was called? Because I've never heard anyone call it "The Russian Ballets" or "The Russian Ballet" any more than I have heard of the dance troupe "Circus of the Sun."

There seems to be a bit of "I just put something down" quality to that, which is why I'm not sympathetic to giving someone fake points in a non-existent contest on an internet forum for it.

[econgator]

So, what's the verdict: is The Russian Ballet acceptable?

Need to know before taking the "FJs for the Week" poll. I want the Guesstimania results to be accurate!

The correct translation is Russian Ballets. So is singular Russian Ballet acceptable? I vote no.

My vote as well.

[jeff6286]

Here's something I just learned from Wikipedia. After a 1932 split between the founders of the Ballet Russes, two different companies formed, one named the Original Ballet Russe, and the other the Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo. Whether or not either of these two is considered the same company as the Ballet Russes that was the subject of this FJ clue I do not know. However, if there is a company known as the Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo and a Jeopardy! writer asks for the name of a ballet company that toured in Monte Carlo and was founded in 1909, I find it very hard to believe that they would rule a player incorrect for responding with "What is the Ballet Russe?" simply because that particular ballet was not the one founded in 1909, but a later incarnation of it featuring some of the same people. "Ooh, sorry, but you needed an extra "s" on the end, as the ballet you listed is a completely different company, even though it toured most of the same cities and featured some of the same dancers. Tough break there." Possible, maybe, but I find it highly unlikely.

Now is it possible that whoever wrote the Wiki article and/or whatever sources they used for it simply were sloppy in their grammar and that all 3 of these companies were actually known as "Ballet Russes", not "Ballet Russe"? Yes, I suppose that is possible, but based on the number search results I can find for "Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo" without the plural I tend to think that this is an accepted form of the name. Therefore if Russian Ballets is acceptable, then I think Russian Ballet should be as well. Note that I'm not arguing that both English forms must be accepted, just that if one is then I believe the other should be as well.

[bpmod]

But, Ballets Russes and Ballet Russe have exactly the same pronunciation. Rusian Ballets and Russian Ballet do not.

Edit: And what Austin said, too.

Brian

[Austin Powers]

But, Ballets Russes and Ballet Russe have exactly the same pronunciation. Rusian Ballets and Russian Ballet do not.

Brian

Right. And I've seen English language posters advertising the "Ballet Russe." Now, I've seen a poster here or there advertise "The Russian Ballets," so I have to grudgingly concede it's acceptable, but, really, that's an answer pulled out of the buttocks IMHO.

[jeff6286]

But, Ballets Russes and Ballet Russe have exactly the same pronunciation. Rusian Ballets and Russian Ballet do not.

Brian

Oh yeah, that leads to the point I was going to make originally, but then I figured it might be overly complicated and/or stupid. If I've only ever heard the name Ballet Russes spoken and never read the name, then I may very well think that it is the Ballet Russe, since they are pronounced the same. So then when FJ asks me about it I decide (for whatever reason) that I should write the name in English, rather than French, so I write the Russian Ballet, instead of the Russian Ballets. I would have no issue with being ruled incorrect since the English translation is not the name of the group. I would, however, take issue with being ruled incorrect because I failed to match the singular/plural form of the translated title, especially given that in French the "s" is on the adjective while in English the "s" is on the noun.

I'm really not intending to be a dick about this, so hopefully it's not coming off that way, just playing devil's advocate I suppose since no one else seemed to want to take up the cause. If everyone else is indeed on the opposite side of this issue from me then I am more than willing to concede the point.

[Vanya]

But, Ballets Russes and Ballet Russe have exactly the same pronunciation. Rusian Ballets and Russian Ballet do not.

Brian

Oh yeah, that leads to the point I was going to make originally, but then I figured it might be overly complicated and/or stupid. If I've only ever heard the name Ballet Russes spoken and never read the name, then I may very well think that it is the Ballet Russe, since they are pronounced the same. So then when FJ asks me about it I decide (for whatever reason) that I should write the name in English, rather than French, so I write the Russian Ballet, instead of the Russian Ballets. I would have no issue with being ruled incorrect since the English translation is not the name of the group. I would, however, take issue with being ruled incorrect because I failed to match the singular/plural form of the translated title, especially given that in French the "s" is on the adjective while in English the "s" is on the noun.

I'm really not intending to be a dick about this, so hopefully it's not coming off that way, just playing devil's advocate I suppose since no one else seemed to want to take up the cause. If everyone else is indeed on the opposite side of this issue from me then I am more than willing to concede the point.

Russes is plural because in French the adjective has to agree in number with the noun. Why they called one company Russian Ballets, I don't know, unless it refers to the performances they put on.

[jeff6286]

Oh yeah, I screwed up my point about the singular/plural because I got stuck on "Ballet Russes", when the actual name was "Ballets Russes". I was thinking there was only one "s" added, when actually both words ended in "s". I think I've sufficiently confused and/or embarrassed myself enough with this whole line of reasoning that I should let it go at this point...

...or maybe I could make a point about how the clue said that "it performed to great acclaim...", so when considering whether or not to write "The Russian Ballet" or "The Russian Ballets", I decided to go with the singular form since the pronoun in the clue was singular. Nah, I'd better just let it go now. (And I didn't mean me in that last hypothetical, even though I used the word "I", I was just putting myself in the shoes of a hypothetical player facing that decision. I myself was nowhere near the correct response, writing down the Bolshoi Ballet, just like 2 of the 3 contestants, as it was the only Ballet that I could name. So know that at least I wasn't putting up this "fight" for my own personal benefit.)

[bpmod]

Yeah. Bolshoi here too.

Brian

[Paucle]

Personally, if someone said "Russian Ballet" to me, I'd ask them if they were talking about Bolshoi, Kirov, or Ballets Russes.

ETA: my sister agreed. She was a soloist for Pennsylvania Ballet for years, and current artistic director of the Raleigh Dance Theatre, so I'm thinking she knows whereof she speaks!
Besides, you left off that critical "S" if you said merely "Russian Ballet." It's plural.

[Miss Mellie]

For what it's worth, I do not consider my blurted "The Russian Ballet" a correct response. Yes, I was thinking of Nijinsky's company. No, I did not confuse the company with the Kirov or the Bolshoi. I knew the correct company but did not pull the correct company name (as Austin Powers noted upthread, no one would refer to the "Circus of the Sun.")

I love all the debate, though!

[Magna]

For the "Russian Ballet" skeptics, click on the link in the "Further Reading" section of the Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballets_Russes

It takes you to an article in the National Library Magazine, whose first sentence begins: "When the Monte Carlo Russian Ballet arrived in Adelaide in
October 1936...." (N.B. the capital B in "Ballet" - indicating it's part of the name.)

Not to say this is absolutely proper or anything like that - but it is an example of a mainstream publication referring to the company (or at least the Monte Carlo company) by the English translation of its name.

[davey]

For the "Russian Ballet" skeptics, click on the link in the "Further Reading" section of the Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballets_Russes

It takes you to an article in the National Library Magazine, whose first sentence begins: "When the Monte Carlo Russian Ballet arrived in Adelaide in
October 1936...." (N.B. the capital B in "Ballet" - indicating it's part of the name.)

Not to say this is absolutely proper or anything like that - but it is an example of a mainstream publication referring to the company (or at least the Monte Carlo company) by the English translation of its name.

The article also refers to Diaghilev's "inaugural" 1909 company as the "Ballet Russe," appearing to reserve the plural for the collection of Diaghilev's and other succeeding "companies," of which the "Monte Carlo Russian Ballet" is one, and "the Original Ballet Russe" is another (like Original Ray's Pizza, I guess). But the writer still says "the Ballets Russes was founded"...

[plasticene]

Just because "Les Ballets Russes" literally means "The Russian Ballets" doesn't make it a better translation than "The Russian Ballet". It appears to be idiomatic in French to refer to a dance company as "Les Ballets" whatever, but we don't generally say "ballets" in English unless we're talking about musical compositions or productions of a ballet.

I would count "The Russian Ballet" correct for FJ. (I answered "Ballet Russe" on the WQC question, which I'm sure was close enough. I considered adding "de Monte Carlo", but that would have made it definitely wrong, since the question referred to footage recorded before the founding of the BRdMC.)

[TenPoundHammer]

Am I the only one who wasn't even thinking ballet?

[Magna]

Bearing in mind their rule that spelling doesn't count in FJ, they probably would have have to accept a response as far off as "Balay Rooce."