Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Volante
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Volante »

davey wrote: The clue says that Acts 1:13 places an event in "an upper room." There is no event in Acts 1:13...So no response is correct. (OK, maybe "What is going up into it?"...) The writers evidently mixed up a quote from the Gospels like Luke 22:12 with this quote from Acts.
It says an event occurred in 'an upper room.' Past tense. Not that it's happening IN Acts 1:13. Whatever happened must have come before Acts 1:13 (which might hurt the Pentacost crowd, not sure when that counts as having started).
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Johnblue »

Sleepy Hollow didn't actually exist until a few years ago when North Tarrytown decided to go upmarket.

I'm glad to see a returning champ. Tired of the one & gone types. The klezmer lady seemed good in the beginning but then said nothing for a long time.
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by fowlerism »

Volante wrote:It says an event occurred in 'an upper room.' Past tense. Not that it's happening IN Acts 1:13. Whatever happened must have come before Acts 1:13 (which might hurt the Pentacost crowd, not sure when that counts as having started).
Another interpretation of the past tense is possible if you think of the Bible as historically accurate, as some people do. In that case, anything before the present would fall under the past tense 'occurred,' which includes most of the Bible.

For what it's worth, I'm in the "badly worded, both are correct" camp.
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Post by Sage on the Hudson »

zakharov wrote:Death to ABC New York for showing a very special report of a yacht explosion instead of my J fix.
I was thinking: but what if it's Ken Jenninigs's yacht?


vellore wrote:Well
Spoiler
Last Supper is accepted and Pentecost ruled incorrect. Alex then appears in a spliced-in bit explaining something about "We were thinking one thing but wrote another" (I didn't catch the precise wording as I was running to the bookshelf for my Bible). He credits Nicholas Cage with an extra $12,000. Then the splice ends and we're back to regular send-off.
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Johnblue wrote:Sleepy Hollow didn't actually exist until a few years ago when North Tarrytown decided to go upmarket.
Not everybody in North Tarrytown was crazy about the change of name (some local doctors wanted to call it Narcolepsy Hollow).
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by stevo4212 »

Is there a reason why I thought Lou Brock played for the Detroit Tigers? Maybe there was another great base stealer who played for the Tigers?

I agree with the comment about the clench-teethed delivery? Did any staffer talk to Mr. CAPSLOCK about his delivery on screen?
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by stevo4212 »

I think that Jeopardy needs to get rid of its religious-based questions. Religion is a personal choice, period. A secular-minded person should in no way be forced to learn any religion, to do otherwise is highly immoral in my opinion. That consideration should apply to both contestants (the contestant should not be financially incentivized to learn religion) and viewers (Jeopardy! viewers should not have religious facts forced upon them)
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by stevo4212 »

Imagine a person who has truly outstanding knowledge of history, culture, arts, literature, etc. only he is strict observer of some religion, that tells him it is sinful to read the texts of any other religion or to make an effort to learn the content of any other religious belief? Is it fair that he loses at Jeopardy because he misses the FJ question on some biblical passage?
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

If I practice a religion that says reading is a sin, should I be entitled as a Jeopardy contestant to clues that omit all literary references?
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Bamaman »

Ty Cobb played for the Tigers.

Would your ban on religious clues extend to Greek, Roman and other mythology?
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by stevo4212 »

seaborgium wrote:If I practice a religion that says reading is a sin, should I be entitled as a Jeopardy contestant to clues that omit all literary references?
So things are complicated in this area, just as life is complicated. I think referencing a passage directly from the bible is an easy case, however. It makes more sense to say that if a question is somehow involved with religion, that the tie-in to religion ought to come from some nonreligious source - art, history or literature or some other secular source as the case may be. But, if the question obviously goes out of its way to emphasize religion, its probably inappropriate.
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by stevo4212 »

Really, the issue has more to do with difficulty differential across categories. The art or mythology categories, for instance seem to be a lot less deep than, say, the music category. With art, the writers seem to stop with the old masters, but with movies or music, there appears to be no limit as to what the writers can ask about. Maybe "Hot Fuzz" will show up as a correct question in a movie category tomorrow, but you are a lot less likely to have to identify 2012 Pritzker prize winner, Wang Shu. (possibly a bad example).

With respect to religion, the writers ought to be sensitive to the fact 1. that the typical contestant does not have information osmose through him like a sponge, but must actually work at learning all the material to perform well in each category, and 2. therefore asking him to know facts about religion that are not extremely well known by average persons, might require him to study the scripture, and asking a person to read scripture is inappropriate.

In sum, I think if Jeopardy asks about religion, it needs to be a lot more sensitive about how deeply it dives into the scripture.

As for mythology, the literature generally read by the public in the west includes The Iliad and the Odyssey, which reference a lot of mythology. Otherwise, I would say that it constitutes a religion.
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by earendel »

I came here prepared to engage in a rant regarding last night's FJ clue and the contestants' answers, only to find, as I should have surmised, that the ground has been amply covered. However, just to add my 2-cents' worth.

When I saw the FJ category I told my wife that I'd go all in, risking a Clavin, in a category that is in the center of my wheelhouse. She asked me if I would do that if I were on the show and I told her, "no, because there's always the possibility that the writers have come up with something bizarre, or I might overthink the question and put down the wrong answer. So if I were in Aaron's shoes, I'd bet nothing." Lo and behold the FJ clue is revealed. "Hmmm...it can't be Pentecost, because that's in chapter 2. It's not Jesus' appearance to the disciples because that happens outdoors. That's right around when the disciples decided to replace Judas and chose Matthias. So that's my answer - the election of Matthias." When Elaine's answer of "Last Supper" was correct, I told my wife, "see what I mean?" then pulled out my Bible and read Acts 1:13, which does NOT mention the supper. Aaron's answer of "Pentecost" couldn't be correct, but neither was Elaine's. Unfortunately my DVR cut off before the spliced-in comments by Alex (mentioned here) so I didn't know that the judges had decided that the clue was poorly written.
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by stevo4212 »

Perhaps a functional question is, if Jeopardy were run by the government, would it violate the establishment clause to ask the religious questions? Since there might be a serious question if that were the case, why should this private company do what would be questionable for the government?
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

Volante wrote:
davey wrote: The clue says that Acts 1:13 places an event in "an upper room." There is no event in Acts 1:13...So no response is correct. (OK, maybe "What is going up into it?"...) The writers evidently mixed up a quote from the Gospels like Luke 22:12 with this quote from Acts.
It says an event occurred in 'an upper room.' Past tense. Not that it's happening IN Acts 1:13. Whatever happened must have come before Acts 1:13 (which might hurt the Pentacost crowd, not sure when that counts as having started).
The Last Supper is the response they wanted. It doesn't matter when it occurred. What matters is that Acts 1:13 gives no information about The Last Supper, Pentecost, or anything else that happened in the room (not even prayer, which is in the next verse). Since the kerfuffle resulted in them accepting "Pentecost" (after the taping was over evidently), that crowd is not hurt. But you're right, it's not correct. Neither is The Last Supper.
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by John Boy »

Rafferty Barnes wrote:What the what? I guess they were referring to The Cenacle, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenacle but reference to Acts confused me, since that book happens after Jesus is crucified (its the ACTS of the Apostles), the the Last Supper happened before.

It would seem that would be easy for someone to catch before they made it a FJ.
True that. I thought their "fact checkers" (or whoever) double- or triple-checked clues for factual correctness among other things. The passage in question (let alone the entire book of Acts) had nothing to do with the Last Supper. Very sloppy and careless on the part of the writers. I don't think I've seen the likes of this FJ foul-up in the many years I've been watching: a clue with no possible correct answer. "Upper Room" definitely points to Last Supper, while Acts points to Pentecost.

Nice job by the champ here.
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

stevo4212 wrote:
seaborgium wrote:If I practice a religion that says reading is a sin, should I be entitled as a Jeopardy contestant to clues that omit all literary references?
So things are complicated in this area, just as life is complicated. I think referencing a passage directly from the bible is an easy case, however. It makes more sense to say that if a question is somehow involved with religion, that the tie-in to religion ought to come from some nonreligious source - art, history or literature or some other secular source as the case may be. But, if the question obviously goes out of its way to emphasize religion, its probably inappropriate.
Why can't the bible be part of the canon of literature Jeopardy traditionally asks about? I don't think knowing that Rebecca is Jacob's mother is any different from knowing that Gertrude is Hamlet's mother.
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by dhkendall »

stevo4212 wrote:Imagine a person who has truly outstanding knowledge of history, culture, arts, literature, etc. only he is strict observer of some religion, that tells him it is sinful to read the texts of any other religion or to make an effort to learn the content of any other religious belief? Is it fair that he loses at Jeopardy because he misses the FJ question on some biblical passage?

I'm sure Ken Jennings would agree with you. He is a member of a religion that forbids drinking (both alcohol and coffee) - you can imagine how hard he kicks himself every day that he could not answer any of those Potent Potable questions that Jeopardy! love to ask so much because his religion forbids consuming alcohol.

Oh wait, he knew that, since a potent potables question was bound to come up, he studied his cocktail ingredients intently. And it paid off well for him.

The point here is that Jeopardy! rewards knowledge, and those who are curious about the world around them. No religion (not even the evangelical branch of Christianity) forbids learning (well, except for the ultra-orthodox fundamentalist version of Islam espoused by the Taliban, but I don't think any self-respecting Taliban wants to go on Jeopardy!) No religion matches the requirements of your imaginary scenario, and I can recall seeing Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and atheists on the show alike, and I can distinctly remember members of each and every group answering religious questions.
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by immaf »

Regarding FJ, my Mom said "The Last Supper", but I was thrown by the reference to Acts. I was thinking that lots of events happened in the upper room. The event I settled on was the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, but I was torn about what to call it. Pentecost? Tongues of Fire? I was pleased when Pentecost was ruled correct, although Alex's explanation left something to be desired.

In any event, it was a bad clue.

On another topic: in the "Words of Love" category I said "fealty" instead of "fidelity". Do you think they would have accepted it?
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

immaf wrote:Regarding FJ, my Mom said "The Last Supper", but I was thrown by the reference to Acts. I was thinking that lots of events happened in the upper room. The event I settled on was the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, but I was torn about what to call it. Pentecost? Tongues of Fire? I was pleased when Pentecost was ruled correct, although Alex's explanation left something to be desired.
Pentecost wasn't "ruled correct," the champ was given credit because there IS no correct response to the clue, and "Pentecost" is as reasonable a response to the false clue as "Last Supper," since they both occurred in "the upper room." As a separate issue, I believe it's common to refer to the manifestation of the Holy Spirit as "Pentecost." There's a whole Protestant faith that uses it that way...
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Re: Monday, June 11, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

jeff6286 wrote:Man, if we play Guesstimania Final Jeopardy again next week, we may just have to Monday's FJ clue entirely, since it was such a mess. Alex's explanation seemed to imply that the show's feelings were that the clue was so poorly constructed, there were either no correct answers, or many different correct answers. So how the heck is everyone voting in the poll supposed to determine if their own personal response should be counted as correct? Maybe we'll have to have a separate poll where everyone gives their responses and the whole board votes as to which responses should be correct and which shouldn't? Or maybe just tell everyone to count it as correct since it was a bad clue. Any other thoughts?

(I was going to post this in the Guesstimania thread, but figured it would be better here so as not to spoil anyone who hasn't seen Monday's game yet.)
You posted a list of things that happened in the upper room. Assuming it's a complete list, any allusion to those should be the acceptable responses. But no response is correct.
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