Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby Volante » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:36 pm

mswanson wrote:Then FJ. Right. I completely blanked on the Taj Mahal. My mind was nowhere near there. During the end credits stand around segment, we all were saying how the "Arabic calligraphy" part threw us off ...

Calligraphy made the Taj Mahal and instant for me. It's *covered* in calligraphy.

http://www.pbs.org/treasuresoftheworld/ ... raphy.html
Most artists and architects of the time never achieved celebrity for their achievements; it was the patron who received recognition for their work. But perhaps because of the importance of his honored profession, the chief calligrapher was allowed to record his name on the Taj Mahal. Near the lines from the Koran at the base of the interior dome is the inscription, "Written by the insignificant being, Amanat Khan Shirazi."
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby mswanson » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:38 pm

Vanya wrote:My local station broadcast this game tonight (Friday), I guess because Lukas was on. I don't recall them ever doing that before.

Huh, did they do it two nights in a row then? You didn't miss too much, (un?)fortunately!
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby CyrusChan » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:57 pm

John Boy wrote:
legendneverdies wrote: Or the other two players making inoptimal bets.


One of many "gentle" words I've seen in this thread to describe wagering by the guys. Good grief.

I have really enjoyed watching David's run: he seems very knowledgeable and a good guy to boot. Is this the first time in his run that he had to wager from behind in final? 'cause that was just an awful way to throw away another win. Seems that, while he's preparing for the ToC he'll have to spend some time on strategy.

Congrats to the new champ, no matter how she got there.

I figured this would be a horrid FJ category for me. When I saw the clue my mind ran all over the map, including to a couple of answers offered up by these contestants. None seemed quite right. The date (1650, was it?) spoke to me of Mogul dynasty and I came up with Taj Mahal about halfway through. Not an instaget, but I love it whenever I get one that's a TS on the show.


Really, you see 1650 and Arabic and you get to Mughal Empire and from there you draw Taj Mahal??? How in the world? If I am not mistaken, I would believe the Empire had constant control over W India/ Pakistan and I know that the rulers were Muslim. But how did you draw Arabic into the equation? I would have guessed Urdu, Punjab or Persia to be a main language of writing but nowhere would I have gotten Arabic into the equation.

Scanning Eurasia and 1650 and you get Taj Mahal, that is amazing. All that I mentioned earlier seemed to take way more than 30 secs. Maybe I should familiarize myself more in M.E., Arabian , and the Indian subcontinent and the Urals....
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby Vanya » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:44 am

mswanson wrote:
Vanya wrote:My local station broadcast this game tonight (Friday), I guess because Lukas was on. I don't recall them ever doing that before.

Huh, did they do it two nights in a row then? You didn't miss too much, (un?)fortunately!


No, they didn't broadcast it Thursday because of basketball. They always say they are going to, after the game, but they put on infomercials instead. Usually they never make up for it.

And said station is in Lukas' hometown. :)
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby Bamaman » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:17 am

Vanya wrote:
mswanson wrote:
Vanya wrote:My local station broadcast this game tonight (Friday), I guess because Lukas was on. I don't recall them ever doing that before.

Huh, did they do it two nights in a row then? You didn't miss too much, (un?)fortunately!


No, they didn't broadcast it Thursday because of basketball. They always say they are going to, after the game, but they put on infomercials instead. Usually they never make up for it.

And said station is in Lukas' hometown. :)



That was very nice of them to make sure Lukas' game got on.

My station airs it at 3:30, so it gets bumped during March Madness, Thanksgiving football and any weather issues. But they never replay it. A few years ago the TOC was in March and I e-mailed them asking them to rerun it since it was a special event and they did, but haven't done it again. They have a digital channel they show crappy outdoors shows on, they could show regular programming there on days it is bumped, but they never do.
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby elijahjt » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:23 am

CyrusChan wrote:Really, you see 1650 and Arabic and you get to Mughal Empire and from there you draw Taj Mahal??? How in the world? If I am not mistaken, I would believe the Empire had constant control over W India/ Pakistan and I know that the rulers were Muslim. But how did you draw Arabic into the equation? I would have guessed Urdu, Punjab or Persia to be a main language of writing but nowhere would I have gotten Arabic into the equation.

Scanning Eurasia and 1650 and you get Taj Mahal, that is amazing. All that I mentioned earlier seemed to take way more than 30 secs. Maybe I should familiarize myself more in M.E., Arabian , and the Indian subcontinent and the Urals....


As you are already aware the Mughals were Muslim, the connection should not be too difficult to make when you consider Arabic and Islam are inexorably intertwined. You are correct that languages like Persian and Urdu were predominant in the Mughal lands. However, even now, no matter where you are in the world (from the U.S. to Malaysia), no matter what language is predominantly spoken, sites of Muslim significance or Muslim places of worship very frequently include Arabic calligraphy, in part because Arabic is the language of the Qur'an. Indeed, much of the Arabic calligraphy at the Taj Mahal comes from the Qur'an.
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby Zee2 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:00 pm

For OrangeSAM,

Online translators are great, especially for laughs. I do use them a lot for my translations of pharmaceutical names and diseases (I am a published translator) but even then they have to be checked against valid sources. My PARA and POR knowledge is native-born. "Libros de niños" can mean by children or for children, depending on the level of discourse, but "libros POR niños" means only one thing: books by children. The online translators, especially machine ones, work on single words and do not generally understand context, nuance, etc. They can't, they are a machine, after all, and not even close to WATSON level either.
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby TenPoundHammer » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:05 pm

Bamaman wrote:My station airs it at 3:30, so it gets bumped during March Madness, Thanksgiving football and any weather issues. But they never replay it. A few years ago the TOC was in March and I e-mailed them asking them to rerun it since it was a special event and they did, but haven't done it again. They have a digital channel they show crappy outdoors shows on, they could show regular programming there on days it is bumped, but they never do.


I've already said countless times the stupid things WNEM will bump J! and/or Wheel for. Among them, an hour long special on a local hospital.
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby debramc » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:46 pm

elijahjt wrote:
CyrusChan wrote:Really, you see 1650 and Arabic and you get to Mughal Empire and from there you draw Taj Mahal??? How in the world? If I am not mistaken, I would believe the Empire had constant control over W India/ Pakistan and I know that the rulers were Muslim. But how did you draw Arabic into the equation? I would have guessed Urdu, Punjab or Persia to be a main language of writing but nowhere would I have gotten Arabic into the equation.

Scanning Eurasia and 1650 and you get Taj Mahal, that is amazing. All that I mentioned earlier seemed to take way more than 30 secs. Maybe I should familiarize myself more in M.E., Arabian , and the Indian subcontinent and the Urals....


As you are already aware the Mughals were Muslim, the connection should not be too difficult to make when you consider Arabic and Islam are inexorably intertwined. You are correct that languages like Persian and Urdu were predominant in the Mughal lands. However, even now, no matter where you are in the world (from the U.S. to Malaysia), no matter what language is predominantly spoken, sites of Muslim significance or Muslim places of worship very frequently include Arabic calligraphy, in part because Arabic is the language of the Qur'an. Indeed, much of the Arabic calligraphy at the Taj Mahal comes from the Qur'an.

The calligraphy is prominent in Muslim architecture and art because representations of living beings are considered idolatry in Islam. So instead they write phrases from the Koran, generally, in beautiful intricate calligraphy. It's decoration, not communication. (Mostly.)
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby dhkendall » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:15 am

debramc wrote:So instead they write phrases from the Koran, generally, in beautiful intricate calligraphy. It's decoration, not communication. (Mostly.)


So, despite being actual words that have meaning, it's more meant as the Islamic equivalent of lorem ipsum?

(Strangely enough, asking for 5 paragraphs of lorem ipsum text on the Arabic version of lipsum.com still gets you the same dummy text in Latin, in the Latin alphabet. Pity since, as you say, Arabic script can easily be very easy on the eyes (although, imho, it has nothing on the Sinhala script.)
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby seaborgium » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:53 am

I'm catching up on missed episodes since I went to Europe two Fridays ago and arrived back about seven hours ago. I didn't feel the need to bump old threads, but this one cried out to me. (The end reminds me a bit of this game, except that third had a sole get, and should have lost despite even that. BTW, a triple stumper would have led to a pretty nutty result.) Congrats, Margaret! Also, I was beginning to think that sometime after Tom Kunzen's run, it had become impossible for five-timers to lose their sixth. Maybe it's just become the case that they have to try to lose it.

Taj Mahal was my first thought, but then it seemed too obvious, and then the 1600s seemed too late, and then its location seemed too Indian. Of course I know a shah had it built, but I didn't think of that, and panicked onto a seesaw between it and the Alhambra, and went with the latter.

P.S. "Libros por niños" can be translated as "books for children" when referring to an exchange being made!
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby jkbrat » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:06 pm

jeff6286 wrote:UNESCO World Heritage Sites
Listed in 1983, this complex finished c. 1650 features inland semiprecious stones & Arabic calligraphy.

I see no reason for the writers to have chosen to include the word Arabic in this clue other than either ignorance of (as a potential incorrect response in this context) or intentional neg-bait towards the Blue Mosque (listed in 1985, finished 1616).

I think the first-order fact in this clue is the build date. And while I don't think the writers need to go out of their way to steer people away from responses that are off by hundreds (Alhambra) or more than a thousand (Hagia Sophia, Kaaba) years (so thankfully it didn't negatively affect any of the contestants), I do think it's reasonable for the writers to make an effort to do so for a response that is off by ~ 34 years. Or, if they're not going to try to steer people away from a so-close incorrect response, at least try to avoid steering them towards it.

But I think the word Arabic is more likely to steer people (who are familiar with it) towards the Blue Mosque than away from it, as Turkey is much closer (geographically and culturally) to the Arabic countries than India is.

And it wasn't necessary to use the word Arabic -- the writers could have chosen to describe the decorations as Islamic calligraphy (Islamic being, I believe, a broader term than Arabic) or even just calligraphy (which would imply Islam without steering people as explicitly towards the Middle East). Or, Instead of referencing the calligraphy at all, they could have chosen to reference some other obscure-but-defining aspect of the Taj Mahal that includes a word like Persian or Khan to try steer people away from the Blue Mosque without steering them too obviously towards the Taj Mahal (as Mughul, wife, or Agra would).
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby Vanya » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:17 pm

If you answered Blue Mosque, you would have to specific, as there at least four building known as that.
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby Volante » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:38 pm

jkbrat wrote:
jeff6286 wrote:UNESCO World Heritage Sites
Listed in 1983, this complex finished c. 1650 features inland semiprecious stones & Arabic calligraphy.

I see no reason for the writers to have chosen to include the word Arabic in this clue other than either ignorance of (as a potential incorrect response in this context) or intentional neg-bait towards the Blue Mosque (listed in 1985, finished 1616).

I think the first-order fact in this clue is the build date. And while I don't think the writers need to go out of their way to steer people away from responses that are off by hundreds (Alhambra) or more than a thousand (Hagia Sophia, Kaaba) years (so thankfully it didn't negatively affect any of the contestants), I do think it's reasonable for the writers to make an effort to do so for a response that is off by ~ 34 years. Or, if they're not going to try to steer people away from a so-close incorrect response, at least try to avoid steering them towards it.

But I think the word Arabic is more likely to steer people (who are familiar with it) towards the Blue Mosque than away from it, as Turkey is much closer (geographically and culturally) to the Arabic countries than India is.

And it wasn't necessary to use the word Arabic -- the writers could have chosen to describe the decorations as Islamic calligraphy (Islamic being, I believe, a broader term than Arabic) or even just calligraphy (which would imply Islam without steering people as explicitly towards the Middle East). Or, Instead of referencing the calligraphy at all, they could have chosen to reference some other obscure-but-defining aspect of the Taj Mahal that includes a word like Persian or Khan to try steer people away from the Blue Mosque without steering them too obviously towards the Taj Mahal (as Mughul, wife, or Agra would).

Arabic / Islamic / calligraphy would all have the same effect, IMO.

Anyway, the Blue Mosque gets its name from the blue tile used inside. Tile which is not inlaid with semiprecious stones.
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby wakka » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:01 pm

DWS wrote:Bad wagers by the guys... I'll leave it at that.

I was pleasantly surprised when my WAG for FJ turned out to be correct.


No reason David should EVER bet that high. He needs Lukas to miss in order to win so bet like he will miss it and just cover Margaret's double....
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby Volante » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:15 pm

wakka wrote:
DWS wrote:Bad wagers by the guys... I'll leave it at that.

I was pleasantly surprised when my WAG for FJ turned out to be correct.


No reason David should EVER bet that high. He needs Lukas to miss in order to win so bet like he will miss it and just cover Margaret's double....

I'll just leave this here... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=753&start=40#p33923
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby Austin Powers » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:24 pm

I like Margaret as a champion and I don't really understand the incredibly poor bets from the two leaders but hey it's not my money. I am guessing Lukas bet to cover the champ and just forgot about Margaret. And with all due respect to the champ, given the legal market being what it is the money plus prestige from a couple more wins on Jeopardy can only help your resume. Okay, actually most law firms are looking for unthinking zombies who'll do anything for the right to make partner at a firm different from the one where they start at, so maybe you don't want to stand out too much. Still, money is good, and that bet really did little to improve the chances for a win. But now you are in the TOC, so study!

Drosophila ITYM Jeopardy.

I thought the helicopter category had two absolutely hideous questions:

"Because they turn a propeller, copter engines are rated in these units rather than in lbs. of thrust like a jet engine"

is a complete WTF, why is this a "because." Now, my understanding is that the "because" is because they like to calculate based on the area of the disk in feet, but it's not like this is somehow obvious to someone playing in the middle of the game. Tell them it's a unit of power at least, and maybe even a non-metric unit since this is middle of the board, especially since thrust is usually measured in newtons/pounds of thrust, so yeah I would be a little surprised to get a question on thrust (really just a force) and you actually want something about power.

The other one was the cargo hook, I'm looking at it thinking this is a cargo hook but the question makes this very obvious thing somehow difficult because it acts like this hook which holds cargo is this incredibly noteworthy bit of knowledge.

The other question I disliked was the Dead Sea one, as really when you talk about the sect you call them the Essenes. Now this is problematic, since the Essenes may not have even written the scrolls and may not have just lived near the Dead Sea, but really you shouldn't be talking about a sect at all and just ask for the location I feel like.

Taj Mahal was a pretty quick get, but I totally understand why someone would miss it, as most of us don't associate it with being an especially Muslim monument or with India having a bunch of Muslims when you're quickly scrolling through locations in your mind.
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby Austin Powers » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:27 pm

jkbrat wrote:
jeff6286 wrote:UNESCO World Heritage Sites
Listed in 1983, this complex finished c. 1650 features inland semiprecious stones & Arabic calligraphy.

I see no reason for the writers to have chosen to include the word Arabic in this clue other than either ignorance of (as a potential incorrect response in this context) or intentional neg-bait towards the Blue Mosque (listed in 1985, finished 1616).

I think the first-order fact in this clue is the build date. And while I don't think the writers need to go out of their way to steer people away from responses that are off by hundreds (Alhambra) or more than a thousand (Hagia Sophia, Kaaba) years (so thankfully it didn't negatively affect any of the contestants), I do think it's reasonable for the writers to make an effort to do so for a response that is off by ~ 34 years. Or, if they're not going to try to steer people away from a so-close incorrect response, at least try to avoid steering them towards it.

But I think the word Arabic is more likely to steer people (who are familiar with it) towards the Blue Mosque than away from it, as Turkey is much closer (geographically and culturally) to the Arabic countries than India is.

And it wasn't necessary to use the word Arabic -- the writers could have chosen to describe the decorations as Islamic calligraphy (Islamic being, I believe, a broader term than Arabic) or even just calligraphy (which would imply Islam without steering people as explicitly towards the Middle East). Or, Instead of referencing the calligraphy at all, they could have chosen to reference some other obscure-but-defining aspect of the Taj Mahal that includes a word like Persian or Khan to try steer people away from the Blue Mosque without steering them too obviously towards the Taj Mahal (as Mughul, wife, or Agra would).


It's not going to be the Blue Mosque because it's too obscure.
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby Magna » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:29 pm

Austin Powers wrote:Taj Mahal was a pretty quick get, but I totally understand why someone would miss it, as most of us don't associate it with being an especially Muslim monument or with India having a bunch of Muslims when you're quickly scrolling through locations in your mind.

There's also a ton of notable places with Arabic calligraphy and semiprecious stones on them. The years are the only parts of the clue that pin it to Taj Mahal, which makes it tougher.

Fwiw, Alhambra isn't off by hundreds of years, since the complex was periodically under construction, including during both the 1500s and 1700s.

It's not going to be the Blue Mosque because it's too obscure.

One word: Liederkrantz
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Re: Thursday, June 21, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Postby jpahk » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:38 am

i'm still behind (catching up ever so slowly after euro 2012), but i just watched this one and i wanted to say congrats to fellow somervillian margaret on her stunning win. i think everybody's said what i wanted to say about the wagering. lukas played a terrific game and david was an outstanding champ (hey, congrats to you too, since i haven't been around here to comment on any of your five wins, and good luck in the ToC!). but strange things happen.

Bamaman wrote:A champ of Asian background from Somerville, Massachusetts. Where have we seen that before?

you must have a long memory!
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