Friday, July 13, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[jpahk]

Sad to see AJ go, which isn't a knock on the winner, who certainly knows more about Christie than I do. Good knowledge base, nice pulls, and probably kicking himself on that FJ (which read to me like "BLAH BLAH John Dryden first BLAH BLAH"), which was all I needed. Oh well.

yeah, this. but then they threw in "versificator" too, just because they really didn't want anyone to miss it.

i agree that the show has been great to watch this week. i also think they should have at least BMSed "barber of seville" and was telling my TV (which was not interested) as much during the show. brian, just because you misread the clue doesn't mean your response was incorrect. that said, i side with the consensus in saying it would not have altered the final outcome of the show.

Also Chris Fleitas, who won around $80,000 in two wins before Joon beat him.

chris pulled in $82,901 in his two wins, which was more than i did in my first two... including the $50k+ in my 2nd game. so yeah, he was pretty great. around the time of my original run, i noticed with amusement that even though i won 7 games and ended up 6th on the original run money list, the champs who immediately preceded and succeeded me (chris and katie) both put up higher coryats in their wins before & after my runs than i did in any of mine (chris $28.2k and $33k; katie $30.2k; my best $24.8k).

[Magna]

I suggest that Brian should not have been negged on the "Figaro" question. The clue referred to "this character's name" being repeated. Yes, the name is Figaro, but Figaro is the Barber of Seville, which is a correct alternate identification of the character. Yet again, the judges were surprised by a correct answer that wasn't what they had in mind, and, yet again, they fumbled it.

Agreed. I got it right, but I could see how someone who knew both names might say "Barber of Seville."

[hbomb1947]

I suggest that Brian should not have been negged on the "Figaro" question. The clue referred to "this character's name" being repeated. Yes, the name is Figaro, but Figaro is the Barber of Seville, which is a correct alternate identification of the character. Yet again, the judges were surprised by a correct answer that wasn't what they had in mind, and, yet again, they fumbled it.

Agreed. I got it right, but I could see how someone who knew both names might say "Barber of Seville."

I want to chime in here as yet another boardie who thinks Brian's response should have been accepted. I know he was very gracious about it in his posting here, but based on a close reading of the wording of the clue, I think "Barber of Seville" should have qualified as a correct response.

Whether he should be brought back is, in my view, a much more difficult question, given that he missed the FJ (I acknowledge that the subsequent clues might have unfolded a little differently, but that is unknowable). But it was noted above that contestants have been invited back when their chances of winning had been even more unlikely if it were assumed they would have been credited with the response that was dinged on the show. And I'll say that I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Brian again on my TV set.

[stevo4212]

So Here's why Brian should have won, and would have won if the judges had done their jobs:

1. As I have vehemently argued to death already, Brian deserved the points for "Barber of Seville."

2. As jeff pointed out, accepting the answer of "the Pigeon" to Agatha Christie for $1,000, was clearly, nonnegotiably incorrect.

In this universe, Brian's 18600 would have gone up against Liza"s 4,400.

Don't get me wrong, I admire Liza's deep knowledge of Agatha Christie, but, in this case, the answer was incorrect because, a. the title of the book is "Cat Among the PIGEONS" (anyone would tell you that when you are dealing with titles, the title is sacrosanct). b. The question clearly said "These birds" indicating that a plural response was required.

[TenPoundHammer]

Is there a way any of us peons can make an appeal for a bring-back? (I ask this because I saw a blooper on Wheel not too long ago that affected the outcome of the game.)

[Austin Powers]

So Here's why Brian should have won, and would have won if the judges had done their jobs:

1. As I have vehemently argued to death already, Brian deserved the points for "Barber of Seville."

2. As jeff pointed out, accepting the answer of "the Pigeon" to Agatha Christie for $1,000, was clearly, nonnegotiably incorrect.

In this universe, Brian's 18600 would have gone up against Liza"s 4,400.

Don't get me wrong, I admire Liza's deep knowledge of Agatha Christie, but, in this case, the answer was incorrect because, a. the title of the book is "Cat Among the PIGEONS" (anyone would tell you that when you are dealing with titles, the title is sacrosanct). b. The question clearly said "These birds" indicating that a plural response was required.

See, the Pigeon issue is a fair point.

I still don't see the Figaro. It's true, "the 16th president" and "Lincoln" are the same person, but a question asking for a person wants that person, not his title or some other true fact about him. There's a gestalt to a question, to be weaselly about it, and when you ask for the name that's repeated throughout a song, "Figaro" is more correct than "Barber of Seville," or the "popular character that's featured in operas by both Mozart and Rossini," even if he's all of this. I could put "16th President" down as that answer to that FJ last week, but the show's completely reasonable in saying, sure, that's right, but that's not what we wanted, because we mentioned this other stuff in the question pointing toward wanting the name "Lincoln."

But I think all this means is Liza is still champ, assuming she goes all in at third, which she did anyway.

[Magna]

No one has a problem with "repeats... repeatedly"? Srsly?

Well, the aria has a couple of big groups of repetitions in quick succession (nine or ten times each), plus some other mentions, so I suppose you could say the repetitions repeat.

I still don't see the Figaro. It's true, "the 16th president" and "Lincoln" are the same person, but a question asking for a person wants that person, not his title or some other true fact about him. There's a gestalt to a question, to be weaselly about it, and when you ask for the name that's repeated throughout a song, "Figaro" is more correct than "Barber of Seville," or the "popular character that's featured in operas by both Mozart and Rossini," even if he's all of this. I could put "16th President" down as that answer to that FJ last week, but the show's completely reasonable in saying, sure, that's right, but that's not what we wanted, because we mentioned this other stuff in the question pointing toward wanting the name "Lincoln."

The thing is, the clue didn't ask for the name that was repeated - it asked for "this character's name." As others have pointed out, that could refer to the character under any name.

While the FJ clue you referenced clearly pointed to Lincoln, not the President in general, there might be clues that could reasonably be answered with just "Who is the President?" For example, "John Hickley, Jr. was convicted of attempting to assassinate this leader." Someone could reasonably respond either "Who was Ronald Reagan?" or "Who is the President?" Since the clue asks for the leader, not specifically the name of the person who held that post. Similarly, this clue seemed to ask for the character.

[MarkBarrett]

On the topic of bring backs?

While doing a side project for the keeper of the wildcard scores, I came across this surprising judgment call:



This was a QF game in the 1994 Teen Tournament

Jeremy Banta was given credit for Juilliard to be 4100+4000=8100 and third wildcard.

Rebecca Sinderbrand was 2500+2500=5000 and sent packing with $1000.

[Magna]

2. As jeff pointed out, accepting the answer of "the Pigeon" to Agatha Christie for $1,000, was clearly, nonnegotiably incorrect.
...
Don't get me wrong, I admire Liza's deep knowledge of Agatha Christie, but, in this case, the answer was incorrect because, a. the title of the book is "Cat Among the PIGEONS" (anyone would tell you that when you are dealing with titles, the title is sacrosanct). b. The question clearly said "These birds" indicating that a plural response was required.

See, the Pigeon issue is a fair point.

I got this one right and was surprised they accepted it - though I think doing so was generous rather than unfair. Since the clue supplied the plural, someone could assume all they needed was the type of bird, not whether it was singular or plural. It would have been an easy call, imo, if the clue clearly called for the exact word - e.g., "Cat Among the ____."

[Bamaman]

[quote="Magna"
While the FJ clue you referenced clearly pointed to Lincoln, not the President in general, there might be clues that could reasonably be answered with just "Who is the President?" For example, "John Hickley, Jr. was convicted of attempting to assassinate this leader."[/quote]

Actually, Hinkley was found not guilty by reason of insanity, he was not convicted for shooting Reagan and three other people.

[Magna]

Sorry - acquitted, not convicted. Or maybe "charged with." (I originally wrote in someone else but changed it in an ill-fated effort to clarify.) A correct response would be either "Who was Ronald Reagan?" or "Who was the President" (or "Who is/was" any of the others, to the extent they fit the description).

"John Hinckley, Jr. was charged with attempting to assassinate this leader."

[stevo4212]

See, the Pigeon issue is a fair point.

I still don't see the Figaro. It's true, "the 16th president" and "Lincoln" are the same person, but a question asking for a person wants that person, not his title or some other true fact about him. There's a gestalt to a question, to be weaselly about it, and when you ask for the name that's repeated throughout a song, "Figaro" is more correct than "Barber of Seville," or the "popular character that's featured in operas by both Mozart and Rossini," even if he's all of this. I could put "16th President" down as that answer to that FJ last week, but the show's completely reasonable in saying, sure, that's right, but that's not what we wanted, because we mentioned this other stuff in the question pointing toward wanting the name "Lincoln."

But I think all this means is Liza is still champ, assuming she goes all in at third, which she did anyway.

On your reasoning, I would still agree to disagree. One avenue where I might be willing to rethink my position, is if a. all of the official sources only ever refer to the character as "Figaro" and b. It is improper ever to go beyond the four corners of the libretto to provide a monicker different from the official name.

That's a factual question I suppose an opera expert would have to answer. Is that like diving into the metaphysics of characters, or perhaps just this character? I think philosophers have enough fun trying to figure out the human condition. Who is this character? Can you say he's the Barber of Seville, or is he just Figaro? lol

[Volante]

The thing is, the clue didn't ask for the name that was repeated - it asked for "this character's name." As others have pointed out, that could refer to the character under any name.

Rossini's aria "Largo Al Factotum" repeats the name of this character repeatedly.

It asks for 'this character,' not 'this character's name.'

Try this on for size:
Late in Romeo and Juliet, Lord Capulet mentions the name of this character.
Do you accept "The Nurse" or "Lady Capulet" (technically either could work...so ambiguity aside...) or do you demand 'Angelica' as a response?

[stevo4212]

On the topic of bring backs?

While doing a side project for the keeper of the wildcard scores, I came across this surprising judgment call:



This was a QF game in the 1994 Teen Tournament

Jeremy Banta was given credit for Juilliard to be 4100+4000=8100 and third wildcard.

Rebecca Sinderbrand was 2500+2500=5000 and sent packing with $1000.

In those days, was it impossible ever to write what you meant to write? What kind of boards did they use? I suppose the judges had no choice but to be lenient in accepting responses.

[Magna]

The thing is, the clue didn't ask for the name that was repeated - it asked for "this character's name." As others have pointed out, that could refer to the character under any name.

Rossini's aria "Largo Al Factotum" repeats the name of this character repeatedly.

It asks for 'this character,' not 'this character's name.'

Try this on for size:
Late in Romeo and Juliet, Lord Capulet mentions the name of this character.
Do you accept "The Nurse" or "Lady Capulet" (technically either could work...so ambiguity aside...) or do you demand 'Angelica' as a response?

I didn't check the wording of the clue, but I see you're right. The clue asks us to identify the character, rather than the word he repeats.

[Austin Powers]

Is she listed in the cast as Angelica or the Nurse? If she is credited as "Nurse" in the text then that should be fine. Is Figaro called Figaro in the libretto, or is he always The Barber of Seville? Don't know for sure by my hunch is that he is just Figaro.

And I think if you responded with "Juliet's mom," you'd be wrong if they wanted Lady Capulet. Correct, but not correct enough.

And I think "this guy who sells his wife and daughter after a bit too much to drink is "Michael" or "Henchard" or both, and not "The Mayor of Casterbridge."

[Volante]

Is she listed in the cast as Angelica or the Nurse? If she is credited as "Nurse" in the text then that should be fine. Is Figaro called Figaro in the libretto, or is he always The Barber of Seville? Don't know for sure by my hunch is that he is just Figaro.

And I think if you responded with "Juliet's mom," you'd be wrong if they wanted Lady Capulet. Correct, but not correct enough.

And I think "this guy who sells his wife and daughter after a bit too much to drink is "Michael" or "Henchard" or both, and not "The Mayor of Casterbridge."

As to how Figaro is listed, that could depend on the libretto.

Wiki uses "Figaro, a factotum, the Barber of Seville" as the role, but it might be a case of covering all bases. I do recall one with 'Figaro, a barber' Would "the barber" suffice if that's what is listed in the libretto?

[whoisalexjacob]

Hinckley.

The name of this character, introduced in 1894, is from the Hindi for "bear"

The name of this character from an 18th century French work is from the Greek for "all tongues"

A Vegas casino bears the name of this character from the Tales of Scheherazade

(outdated clue)

Rossini's aria "Largo Al Factotum" repeats the name of this character repeatedly

I agree with AP. Like in the first three examples, I'd say it's sufficiently clear that they want you to give the name that's related to the other information in the clue. Like if the title of "The Jungle Book" was instead "The Bear from the Jungle", I don't think "The Bear from the Jungle" would be an acceptable answer to the first clue.

I mean, no offense to the guy of course, but I'd say that he had his shot and lost fairly. Would all of you vote to take away a chance from someone here so that he can have another try? Just curious.

[Magna]

Is she listed in the cast as Angelica or the Nurse? If she is credited as "Nurse" in the text then that should be fine. Is Figaro called Figaro in the libretto, or is he always The Barber of Seville? Don't know for sure by my hunch is that he is just Figaro.

The Dramatis Personae in published scores identify him both ways. If you attend a performance, the cast list will certainly identify him as Figaro, but sometimes also identifies him as the Barber of Seville (depending on how the opera company likes to do it.) This particular aria is all about his job as the city's barber and factotum.

Here, I'd say "factotum" is definitely not enough information, both because it's given in the clue itself, and because Figaro isn't really addressed that way. But, since he's identified as "the Barber of Seville" twice, I think it merits at least a BMS.

Fwiw, have a look at the $400 clue in "Opera Characters" here:
http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=349

[jpahk]

i think it's very different when it's the title character of the work. in AP's example, i would absolutely expect the mayor of casterbridge to be acceptable for a clue about michael henchard unless it explicitly asks for his name; similarly for antonio/the merchant of venice. but i've found that in general, the writers are pretty good about letting you know what they're asking for, and i suspect that what happened here is that they thought they were specifying that they wanted the name, but the exact wording they chose did not quite accomplish this.

consider this recent DD (sorry margaret):

"Jody put out his bruised hand again, and..." this title animal "let his nose be rubbed"

they wanted the red pony, not gabilan. (and yes, i had to look that up. i've read the book, but first of all, it was decades ago, and secondly, ugh, it sucked.) now, of course, in the astronomically unlikely event that a contestant had answered "who is gabilan?", of course that would be correct too, because gabilan is indeed the title animal of the book.

here's another example, coincidentally also from a DD, coincidentally also one that will bring back painful memories for a boardie:

Buried treasure found on an islet in the Tuscan Archipelago makes this character wealthy

the response they were looking for: the count of monte cristo, not edmond dantès.