lieph82 wrote:I'm a Jew, I never said the pledge in school, and it did not in any way affect how I was treated. Mods, can we do anything about this?
You're asking the mods to censor views you don't like?
El Jefe wrote:So long as you minimize/deny that US citizens routinely (and freely) decline to say the Pledge, you are denying reality and others' experiences.
You are going to absurd lengths to try to twist my statements into something they plainly are not. If you freely refused to say the pledge, then your experience is that you freely refused to say the pledge. You, personally, did not experience US citizens routinely freely refusing to say the pledge; that is not your experience
, that is your generalization from your experience. The idea that I cannot assert that anyone experienced anything different from what you experienced without "denying your experiences" is just rhetorical nonsense. The overwhelming majority of Americans are coerced into some sort of participation in the pledge.
aeq5006 wrote:Right, so since you've decided no one here is listening to reason, let's leave it at that.
If you wish to disagree, name one person who has presented a reasoned, logical, rational, honest and respectful argument for why the pledge is not bigotry. Or present one yourself. The very first response to my post consisted of: presenting the view that this should not be discussed, and attacking a straw man.
Vanya wrote:This would be funny if it weren't an insult to the many people who are subjected to real bigotry.
Anyone who is insulted by me bringing attention to bigotry against atheists deserves to be insulted. You are the one being insulting, by denying blatant bigotry against atheists.
Vanya wrote:I didn't see the show; what exactly did she say?
She said that every day, she tells her students that Christianity is entitled to special privileges and that belief in God in an essential part of American patriotism.
Rex Kramer wrote:It sounds like you live in a place where this is true. Many of us do not.
You seem to not understand the concept of "true". True statement are true. They aren't true some places, and not true other places.
This is a common catch-22 for atheists: if they live in a place without this sort of bigotry, then people say "Well, it's no big deal". And if they live in a place with this bigotry, then they don't want to come forward.
This is perhaps why you find statements like "It's not that big a deal" outrageous, and many of us find statements like "Children are forced to hide the fact that they are atheists!" absurd.
You find the statement "Children are forced to hide the fact that they are atheists!" absurd because you live someplace where that doesn't happen? Anything that doesn't happen in your presence doesn't exist?
Yes, as you point out, the fact that some children do not face the pressures you declaim does not mean that none do. But it does explain why so many good-hearted, well-educated people on this board feel your excoriation of a reference to god, in the context of a quiz show message board, is inappropriate.
First of all, I have pointed out REPEATEDLY that this is not about a mere "reference" to god. It's not "I pledge allegiance to one nation indivisible, and by the way, some people believe in God". It's "I pledge allegiance to one nation under God". The pledge of allegiance is an endorsement of theocracy. How does this not deserve excoriation?
In fact, it runs the risk of offending the many genuinely religious people who visit these boards, without making us atheists uncomfortable.
Oh noes! Some religious bigots may be offended by my pointing out their bigotry!
I do not suppose you intend to display the mirror image of the bigotry you revile, but your tone does nothing to minimize the danger.
There is nothing bigoted about anything I've said, and you're just repeating pro-bigotry talking points by pretending that attacking bigotry is somehow just as bigoted as bigotry itself.
While we recognize that religious bigotry exists, we also know from personal experience that it is not so all-pervasive that mentioning god on TV is somehow the equivalent of The Spanish Inquisition (which nobody expects, anyway).
I never said that it was the equivalent of The Spanish Inquisition. I said that it was the equivalent of "F*** you, atheists!"
If you hope to lessen such bigotry, you might find that taking steps like teaching tolerance and self-respect will have greater effect in the end than rudely denouncing the kind of white noise comment that thoughtful atheists have learned to deal with long ago.
The fact that atheists have "learned to deal" with such bigotry, and have become so desensitized to it for it to become "white noise" is the whole point. It shouldn't be just accepted. Atheists shouldn't just say "Well, that's just the way it is." And pointing out people's bigotry is not "rude".
Bamaman wrote:aeq is doing for atheists what Fred Phelps did for Christianity.
The fact that you are equating me asking for equality with Phelps demanding inequality, shows what an awful person you are. You have such a sense of entitlement that you view anyone saying that you should not have special rights to be oppressing you.