Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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georgespelvin
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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by georgespelvin »

Yeah, I agree. In the SHC I used to hate anagram clues because I knew they were found points and not doing them would basically forfeit them to others. As a result, I would spend an inordinate amount of time trying to figure them out.
I used to be AWSOP but wanted to be more theatrical.

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lieph82
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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by lieph82 »

bleezy wrote:Is anyone else surprised that all missed "arbitrary"? It seemed like one of the easier questions on the board.
Yeah, I was surprised by that and "antecedent."

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by periwinkle »

What an exciting game to watch!! A real nail-biter. I was rooting for Ken, but I also like Chuck and Russ very much, and it was simultaneously thrilling to watch Chuck come so close (and prove he's one of the all-time greats) and worrisome as I wanted Ken to pull it out.

I said Shackleton for the DD, since he was British and might have known Barrie. Missed seeing "adjective" in the Dionne clue and said quintessence. Nice clue!

Got the FJ pretty quickly, though I didn't know the phrase was from a poem, and hadn't remembered it was from Kipling (though that seemed obvious once I realized it).

I love wordplay categories, and couldn't believe the speed at which Ken was solving those anagrams.

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

jpahk wrote:i'd appreciate it if all the chuck haters would just. shut. up. about his fj wager. you can say that ken "always" makes the MSB, but we have seen plenty of cases in this tournament of unorthodox wagering by the leader. this is literally the first time ken has had to wager from the lead in a non-lock game against two experienced players; i don't know how you can look at the available information and be so confident that he's going to bet to cover. and if he doesn't, then chuck going big could win him the game on a double- or triple-get. there is nothing to say it is a better or worse strategy than going small and trying to stay ahead of ken if ken should miss; it is merely an alternate strategy.
Well, this is awkward. I respect you and your judgment a great deal and hesitate to irk you by not shutting up. But I do have some thoughts and I enjoy the interchange that results on this board when I express them. I am not infrequently persuaded to change my opinion as a result. In any event, I'm definitely not a Chuck hater. He's a great player and tons of fun to watch.

I think you make a valid point that there are multiple subtleties to wagering strategy in this situation. I'm not sold on the idea that Chuck's bet resulted from careful consideration of those subtleties. He has a history (I feel) of needlessly placing his wins in jeopardy. I do find it somewhat frustrating to watch him play every other aspect of the game at the highest level and stumble at this one point. Not everyone shares my hangup or even agrees with my assessment. I get that. At times I lament that top players so rarely find out the hard way that even basic strategy can protect them. I don't bear those players any genuinely ill will. I'm just shaking my fist at the Jeopardy! gods with boisterous fanboy hyperbole. Sometimes it's fun to get a bit rowdy and play the part of the Jeopardy! hooligan. In part, I'm mocking my own over-reaction to something I should just get over.

In this situation, I'm also not sold on the idea that Ken might make a large wager that falls short of the shutout. It's possible, of course. But I'm not sure what reasoning he might employ to get him there. If Chuck's trying to guard against that, though, I agree that the all-in wager is better.

If I were in Chuck's position, I'd assess the situation thusly. Ken's got a couple of options. He can bet small because this tournament has had some really rough FJs. Therefore, he might feel a double stumper is more likely than double get. If he ends up with a sole get, a small bet works just as well as a large one. And if Chuck ends up with a sole get, there's still a chance that Chuck also bet small. Historically, he doesn't do this. But he did do it in his most recently played game. That's how Chuck made it to the semi-finals.

To me, that small bet gives Ken the best odds of winning. Yes, I realize that given the FJ that actually occurred, Ken would have lost on a small bet. That's where psychology comes in. Can Ken really talk himself into a bet that allows him to get FJ and go home defeated? That's a rough way to go. If he'd missed his own quarterfinal FJ, the small bet might be more tempting in the semi-final. But he didn't. If he's going to lose, does he want to lose as the guy that could have won if he'd bet enough or as the guy who went down swinging, sandbagged by a ridiculous FJ? My money says he'll choose the latter.

So in Chuck's position, I absolutely would not risk falling below Ken's score if Ken makes the shutout bet and misses. My inclination would bet to bet around $4,927. Give or take. More or less. If I get FJ right, I want to be above Ken's score, and not by just a dollar. Ken might bet small but still bet more than $0. My bet of roughly $4,927 will put me $127 above $20,000 if I'm right. If Ken's small bet targeted exactly $20,000 (or $20,000 plus a buck or three or a hundred) and we both get FJ, I win. But if Ken made the shutout or even just bet to leave himself $10,000 on a miss, I win on a double stumper.

That's just one of many strategies, of course. There are plenty of others I'd find respectable.

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by bpmod »

lieph82 wrote:
bleezy wrote:Is anyone else surprised that all missed "arbitrary"? It seemed like one of the easier questions on the board.
Yeah, I was surprised by that and "antecedent."
I didn't get 'arbitrary' so no surprise to me there. But 'antecedent' was a real shout-at-the-TV moment for me.

Brian
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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by boson »

Amazing game - I echo the comments of everyone else. I found the Jeopardy round pretty easy (over 10k$ Coryat), but the DJ round kicked my butt (total Coryat around $13k) - one of my worst rounds ever. I console myself in the fact that even these three didn't make it look easy (except Ken with the anagrams... that was amazing).

Congrats Russ on a good showing against two of the best ever, and on making it this far. I was rooting for you, like I root for all the boardies.

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by slam »

cf1140 wrote:Surprise Surprise. Chuck Forrest made a dumb bet.
I've mentioned before that Chuck and I were in the same class in college (didn't really know each but did meet a few times since he was in a suite one year with one of my best friends). Needless to say, we didn't take many classes together. I was a math major and he took lots of humanities classes.

At least the wager didn't cost him the game. But I would have thought that he would have at least learned the 2/3 game situations by now.

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Lefty »

Possible inspiration for the spy novel category here (first paragraph).
I'm smart and I want respect.

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by slam »

cosmos wrote:I have a problem with the FJ wording. Racism is now widely considered to be wrong, it is hardly debatable or controversial. In 1899 there were those who believed in "the white man's burden" and many who did not. Then there was debate and controversy.

Maybe I misunderstand, but why is it now controversial but not then?
For you and me and, I hope, everyone on this board there's no controversy over the merits of racism. However, there are clearly people in this country who believe in the inherent superiority of one race over others. So, use of the word "controversy" isn't as inappropriate as it should be.

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Woof »

This Is Kirk! wrote:The ability to unscramble anagrams seems to be a "you have it or you don't" kind of ability. My wife is probably a notch below Ken, meanwhile I struggle with anything longer than five letters. :)
Although I am generally good with word play, one thing I learned about myself years ago is that I get anagrams much more easily before I've had my morning cup of coffee. I find that I process anagrams much faster subconsciously and caffeine fetters my subconscious in ways that I don't understand. I also find that not focusing on the letters too much, a quick glance at most, also helps me solve them. I have no idea if this is a generalizable observation or not.

p.s. I was also in awe of Ken's speed getting them (and the spy novel titles). As if he needed any more advantages in his games...

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by OrangeSAM »

slam wrote:
cosmos wrote:I have a problem with the FJ wording. Racism is now widely considered to be wrong, it is hardly debatable or controversial. In 1899 there were those who believed in "the white man's burden" and many who did not. Then there was debate and controversy.

Maybe I misunderstand, but why is it now controversial but not then?
For you and me and, I hope, everyone on this board there's no controversy over the merits of racism. However, there are clearly people in this country who believe in the inherent superiority of one race over others. So, use of the word "controversy" isn't as inappropriate as it should be.
Take the case of Donald Sterling, who invoked at least the spirit of the white man's burden in some of his remarks. ("I support them and give them food, and clothes, and cars, and houses.")

If Sterling had made his remarks in 1899, there would have been some negative reaction, but certainly not a media frenzy resulting in his "firing".

I think the "now controversial" label is justified.
OCSam

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Rex Kramer »

jpahk wrote:i'm a wordplay guy, and i did just fine on the spy novels (i missed harrison protocol but got the others), but i was a bit behind on the last two anagrams. that was some top-drawer stuff.
Joon and Ken are the only two people I wouldn't want to face off against in a wordplay category. I wasn't "a bit behind" on TRUST FUND BABY; I had cleared the starting blocks but was still trying to figure out which way to run around the track.

Rex

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Volante »

TenPoundHammer wrote:I'm a total retail nut, and I had no idea that Toys "Я" Us bought out the remains of K-B Toys. I thought K-B just went out of business outright.
I thought it was Kay Bee Toys. (Apparently it was, before 1996...)
OrangeSAM wrote:
morbeedo wrote:Someone please explain how "Dionne kid" gets you to "quintessential"?
It's a pun. The clue called for an item a Dionne Kid must have. "Quint essential"
Isn't that the Orca?

Final was instant. Kipling, now controversial phrase, spotted "take up". Oh, and unlike a certain FJ clue last week, my brain actually recalled the answer in time...perhaps the most important part!
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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by jpahk »

opusthepenguin wrote:Well, this is awkward. I respect you and your judgment a great deal and hesitate to irk you by not shutting up. But I do have some thoughts and I enjoy the interchange that results on this board when I express them. I am not infrequently persuaded to change my opinion as a result.
the respect is mutual; i generally enjoy your posts. but i'm finding it tough to swallow the oversimplification of wagering strategy into a wagering formula, especially under the fascinating circumstances offered by this tournament—namely, a bunch of the best and most experienced players ever going up against each other for very high stakes.

let me just put things as bluntly as i can: in a non-crush situation, there is no "right" wager from 1st place or from 2nd place. it is a matter of psychology.* you should try to predict what your opponent will do, based on: A) your knowledge of her tendencies; B) your perception of his knowledge of your tendencies; C) the category; and (sometimes) D) the 3rd-place player's score.

to me, the strongest argument for chuck to bet small was actually consideration B. chuck has to know that ken is a student of the game—in fact, they spent the entire interview segment of the show discussing that fact. (incidentally, the interview segment ran quite long, and i'm sure this contributed to the clock running out before the board was cleared.) as such, he might be pretty confident that ken knows about chuck's past tendency to bet big from 2nd, a tendency which would make a non-cover bet much riskier against chuck than against a more restrained wagerer. in a true game-theory situation, the advantage of having a known tendency is that you can go against it.

*: if you are afraid of psychology, you could fall back on a mixed strategy, which is immune to being outguessed by a wilier opponent. but it also deprives you of the opportunity to do some outguessing of your own.
Woof wrote:Although I am generally good with word play, one thing I learned about myself years ago is that I get anagrams much more easily before I've had my morning cup of coffee. I find that I process anagrams much faster subconsciously and caffeine fetters my subconscious in ways that I don't understand. I also find that not focusing on the letters too much, a quick glance at most, also helps me solve them. I have no idea if this is a generalizable observation or not.
in the case of jeopardy anagram categories, the way to do them fast is to just use the clue and the length to guess the answer, and then only use the actual letters in the anagram to quickly check to see if you've got (approximately) the right set of letters. occasionally, the presence of certain letters in the anagram will suggest an answer, so that you can kind of work the problem from both ends, but i find that to be relatively uncommon.

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by davey »

OrangeSAM wrote:
slam wrote:
cosmos wrote:I have a problem with the FJ wording. Racism is now widely considered to be wrong, it is hardly debatable or controversial. In 1899 there were those who believed in "the white man's burden" and many who did not. Then there was debate and controversy.

Maybe I misunderstand, but why is it now controversial but not then?
For you and me and, I hope, everyone on this board there's no controversy over the merits of racism. However, there are clearly people in this country who believe in the inherent superiority of one race over others. So, use of the word "controversy" isn't as inappropriate as it should be.
Take the case of Donald Sterling, who invoked at least the spirit of the white man's burden in some of his remarks. ("I support them and give them food, and clothes, and cars, and houses.")

If Sterling had made his remarks in 1899, there would have been some negative reaction, but certainly not a media frenzy resulting in his "firing".

I think the "now controversial" label is justified.
But it's not a question of the sentiment, it's a question of the expression itself. No one would quote it without irony or scorn. Well, maybe Cliveden Bundy....But then Sean Hannity would condemn him for it.

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by davey »

bpmod wrote:
lieph82 wrote:
bleezy wrote:Is anyone else surprised that all missed "arbitrary"? It seemed like one of the easier questions on the board.
Yeah, I was surprised by that and "antecedent."
I didn't get 'arbitrary' so no surprise to me there. But 'antecedent' was a real shout-at-the-TV moment for me.

Brian
As I read the clue for arbitrary, it seemed to be seeking a noun, not an adjective.
Antecedent surprised me though.

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

Rex Kramer wrote:I, too, stumbled on "The Xanadu Encyclical" because I couldn't pull the last term. Jerome got it.
I said "The Xanadu Bull" but wouldn't have rung in with that. I don't know if a few more seconds to parse the clue would have helped. I hate the way they take these kinds of clues off the screen so quickly, especially when there's the opportunity for a rebound. Am I right that Chuck and Russ got to stare at the clue while Ken rang in and missed?

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by lieph82 »

jpahk wrote: let me just put things as bluntly as i can: in a non-crush situation, there is no "right" wager from 1st place or from 2nd place.
I would say that a bad wager in a non-crush situation is one that very little to no thought is put into. And perhaps in a tournament like this, we should be assuming that thought IS placed into every single wager rather than the opposite, but given Chuck's past wagers, to me the $11,000 just seemed like "arbitrarily large whole number."

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Mark B »

A game like that is simply pure pleasure. I’ve been watching J! from the beginning of Alex’s run. I remember Chuck being one of the first players who made me think “Whoa! There is a whole other level out there.” From what he said, young Ken felt the same way. Watching them duke it out at such a high level? Awesome.

I thought Ken’s strategery was outstanding. Great DD bets. And his humor and grace under pressure always impresses.

I’m so glad to have seen both Rex and Joon chime in upthread, because I was thinking of them. They are two of the best wordplay J!-ers I know, but in watching KJ, I have to believe that the speed and confidence he displays in these categories makes him nonpareil. Watching from home (and I bet from the other podia) you kind of forget to try and figure them out yourself as you get swept away by the momentum of his gets. Trust fund baby? Jeez.

Thing is, what makes KJ so good at figuring out these clues is related to what makes him so strong overall: he thinks fast. It’s not that he knows more that the other top top players. By his own admission, there are deeper players out there. Larissa, Jerome, Roger and folks like our old buddies AP and Schlie would likely score higher on a difficult written test of general knowledge. I would argue though (as I have so often in the past) that what makes Ken (and Brad) so damn good at Jeopardy! and so apparently ‘fast’ on the buzzer isn’t the quickness of their physical reflexes but the speed at which they arrive at the right response. Russ mentions that he knew a lot of KJ’s responses but couldn’t get in. I think it’s because Ken knows it earlier in the reading of the clue, and is more likely to be waiting to time the ring-in. The fact is that players ring in faster, on average, on clues that they know immediately. Ken and Brad are vastly knowledgeable, sure, but what makes them the two best J! players I’ve seen is their speed of access to the knowledge they have.

Can’t wait for the rest of the week. So many deep gets. Such great competition. Phenomenal.

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Re: Monday, May 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

John Boy wrote:Boo, hiss. Didn't get to see the game at all, which was pre-empted throughout the Cleveland area by coverage of severe weather.
To be fair, BotD games happen all the time but severe weather is really rare. Especially in the Cleveland area. :roll:

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