The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

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seaborgium
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

CailinGaoilge wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:12 pm
seaborgium wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:34 pm
JemRiffster wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:34 pm "The Troubles" was the name given to the decades-long violent conflict in N. Ireland between Irish nationalists/republicans (who want N. Ireland to join the Republic of Ireland and are generally Catholic) and Unionists/loyalists (who want N. Ireland to remain in the United Kingdom and are generally Protestant).
Also, it was the second clue in a short space to ask for a UK country, so it was going to be one of three choices.
One of four. Though I agree with whoever said that one would not generally think of Northern Ireland as a country.
No, one of three. I know the UK has four countries, but I specifically mentioned that an earlier clue asked for one because we can reasonably expect a correct response not to be repeated.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by dhkendall »

seaborgium wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:42 am
CailinGaoilge wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:12 pm
seaborgium wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:34 pm
JemRiffster wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:34 pm "The Troubles" was the name given to the decades-long violent conflict in N. Ireland between Irish nationalists/republicans (who want N. Ireland to join the Republic of Ireland and are generally Catholic) and Unionists/loyalists (who want N. Ireland to remain in the United Kingdom and are generally Protestant).
Also, it was the second clue in a short space to ask for a UK country, so it was going to be one of three choices.
One of four. Though I agree with whoever said that one would not generally think of Northern Ireland as a country.
No, one of three. I know the UK has four countries, but I specifically mentioned that an earlier clue asked for one because we can reasonably expect a correct response not to be repeated.
Actually I believe NI is classified as a province not a country. I’ll have to look later for the document I saw it in.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by mikebdoss »

opusthepenguin wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:53 pm
Here are the results I get by Googling "area of [X] in square miles":

Florida: 65,755
Michigan: 96,716
Michigan Upper Peninsula: 16,452
Michigan Lower Peninsula: [no answer given]

By simple subtraction it would appear that Michigan's lower peninsula is 96,716 - 16,452 = 80,264 square miles. That's 14,000 square miles LARGER than the whole of Florida. If that's correct, lower Michigan is in fact the largest peninsula in the contiguous US and the accepted response was incorrect.

There may be something hinky going on involving whether to count inland water as part of the area. E.g. Wikipedia agrees with the above figures for Florida and Michigan. It comes close on the upper peninsula, giving the figure of 16,377 square miles. It then claims the lower peninsula is 40,162 square miles. Astute readers will note that these figures, when added, fall far short of Michigan's claimed area of 96,716.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Pen ... f_Michigan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Pen ... f_Michigan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan

But there seems to be a good case for TPH's response anyway. If a contestant had lost by giving that response, I think he or she would have a good case for being brought back. Unless I've pulled an Opus and missed something painfully obvious. I'm not entirely confident of my figures so much as I'm confident that I don't want to continue figuring at the moment.
From https://www.infoplease.com/us/states/la ... tates-2008:

Florida is 53,603 sqmi land, 12,154 sqmi water, and 65,758 sqmi total.
Michigan is 56,528 sqmi land, 40,185 sqmi water, and 96,713 sqmi total.

But Michigan is divided into two peninsulas, and assuming the UP is 16,377 square miles per your figures, that makes the LP closer to 40,000 square miles, so neither is as large as Florida (either in total, or just the land area). It's all of Michigan's water that mucks up the numbers.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

mikebdoss wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:26 pm From https://www.infoplease.com/us/states/la ... tates-2008:

Florida is 53,603 sqmi land, 12,154 sqmi water, and 65,758 sqmi total.
Michigan is 56,528 sqmi land, 40,185 sqmi water, and 96,713 sqmi total.

But Michigan is divided into two peninsulas, and assuming the UP is 16,377 square miles per your figures, that makes the LP closer to 40,000 square miles, so neither is as large as Florida (either in total, or just the land area). It's all of Michigan's water that mucks up the numbers.
But if you default to the land+water areas, as Wikipedia and Google do for both states, LP is much larger than Florida. That was my point. The clue does not have a single correct answer without specifying which method of calculating area it is using.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by Peter the accountant »

opusthepenguin wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:43 pm But if you default to the land+water areas, as Wikipedia and Google do for both states, LP is much larger than Florida. That was my point. The clue does not have a single correct answer without specifying which method of calculating area it is using.
But the land+water for MI is going to include a large portion of two great lakes - the lakes that make MI a peninsula. When talking about the size of a peninsula, it doesn't make sense to include the water surrounding the peninsula.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by mikebdoss »

opusthepenguin wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:43 pm
mikebdoss wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:26 pm From https://www.infoplease.com/us/states/la ... tates-2008:

Florida is 53,603 sqmi land, 12,154 sqmi water, and 65,758 sqmi total.
Michigan is 56,528 sqmi land, 40,185 sqmi water, and 96,713 sqmi total.

But Michigan is divided into two peninsulas, and assuming the UP is 16,377 square miles per your figures, that makes the LP closer to 40,000 square miles, so neither is as large as Florida (either in total, or just the land area). It's all of Michigan's water that mucks up the numbers.
But if you default to the land+water areas, as Wikipedia and Google do for both states, LP is much larger than Florida. That was my point. The clue does not have a single correct answer without specifying which method of calculating area it is using.
The archive says the clue read, "The largest peninsula in the contiguous United States is occupied by this state". Isn't a peninsula, by definition, just the land area (and water within that land)? Your figures in your first post estimated the total area of LP by subtracting the area of the UP (~16,000) from the total area which included water (~96,000), giving you ~80,000 sqmi, but much of that is off-shore (not just inland) water, and therefore not part of the LP.

I can't find good figures as to how much of the water area of Michigan is allocated to each peninsula, but some of it is obviously counting the great lake(s), which couldn't be counted as the area of the peninsula. I still think Florida is correct.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

Peter the accountant wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:59 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:43 pm But if you default to the land+water areas, as Wikipedia and Google do for both states, LP is much larger than Florida. That was my point. The clue does not have a single correct answer without specifying which method of calculating area it is using.
But the land+water for MI is going to include a large portion of two great lakes - the lakes that make MI a peninsula. When talking about the size of a peninsula, it doesn't make sense to include the water surrounding the peninsula.
That's a good point. Can we confirm that the land+water figure for Michigan includes portions of those two great lakes? I assumed that the only water area involved was interior lakes and rivers. All these sites post their figures but nobody posts their methodology.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

mikebdoss wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:26 pm
From https://www.infoplease.com/us/states/la ... tates-2008:

Florida is 53,603 sqmi land, 12,154 sqmi water, and 65,758 sqmi total.
Michigan is 56,528 sqmi land, 40,185 sqmi water, and 96,713 sqmi total.

But Michigan is divided into two peninsulas, and assuming the UP is 16,377 square miles per your figures, that makes the LP closer to 40,000 square miles, so neither is as large as Florida (either in total, or just the land area). It's all of Michigan's water that mucks up the numbers.
Yes, but would you consider all of Florida to be a peninsula? I certainly wouldn't include the panhandle, but it's somewhat unclear what total portion of the state you'd exclude. Michigan is essentially ALL peninsula.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by dhkendall »

dhkendall wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:35 am
seaborgium wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:42 am
CailinGaoilge wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:12 pm
seaborgium wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:34 pm
JemRiffster wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:34 pm "The Troubles" was the name given to the decades-long violent conflict in N. Ireland between Irish nationalists/republicans (who want N. Ireland to join the Republic of Ireland and are generally Catholic) and Unionists/loyalists (who want N. Ireland to remain in the United Kingdom and are generally Protestant).
Also, it was the second clue in a short space to ask for a UK country, so it was going to be one of three choices.
One of four. Though I agree with whoever said that one would not generally think of Northern Ireland as a country.
No, one of three. I know the UK has four countries, but I specifically mentioned that an earlier clue asked for one because we can reasonably expect a correct response not to be repeated.
Actually I believe NI is classified as a province not a country. I’ll have to look later for the document I saw it in.
Found what I was looking for (page 27). I’ve also seen pages from the UK government calling NI and the other three countries, but the fact that there’s a debate about NI (due to its devolution) and not the others always makes me hesitant to use the term country for NI.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by alietr »

dhkendall wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:47 pm Found what I was looking for (page 27). I’ve also seen pages from the UK government calling NI and the other three countries, but the fact that there’s a debate about NI (due to its devolution) and not the others always makes me hesitant to use the term country for NI.
But where does that leave you on the Knights Who Say NI?
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by mikebdoss »

This Is Kirk! wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:49 pm Yes, but would you consider all of Florida to be a peninsula? I certainly wouldn't include the panhandle, but it's somewhat unclear what total portion of the state you'd exclude. Michigan is essentially ALL peninsula.
I considered this issue too, and I don't have a good answer. I can't find any numbers or methodology for what percentage of Florida is peninsula.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by Peter the accountant »

This Is Kirk! wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:49 pmMichigan is essentially ALL peninsula.
Is it? On MI's east side, you've got a significant land connection to Canada, from Detroit, through Lake St. Clair, and on to the southern tip of Lake Huron. Arguably, the eastern side of the peninsula starts at that southern point of Lake Huron.

If you draw a line from there to the point where the Indiana/Michigan border meets Lake Michigan and call that the peninsula, you'd lop off a portion of Michigan's land area. Eyeballing it, I'd guess somewhere around 20% of the LP of MI would not be a peninsula with this definition.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by Volante »

opusthepenguin wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:12 pm
Peter the accountant wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:59 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:43 pm But if you default to the land+water areas, as Wikipedia and Google do for both states, LP is much larger than Florida. That was my point. The clue does not have a single correct answer without specifying which method of calculating area it is using.
But the land+water for MI is going to include a large portion of two great lakes - the lakes that make MI a peninsula. When talking about the size of a peninsula, it doesn't make sense to include the water surrounding the peninsula.
That's a good point. Can we confirm that the land+water figure for Michigan includes portions of those two great lakes? I assumed that the only water area involved was interior lakes and rivers. All these sites post their figures but nobody posts their methodology.
Managed to find a map of Michigan that includes state waters that isn't off Wikipedia.
https://lib.msu.edu/exhibits/map/miboundaries.jsp
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

I think all this discussion just proves it's not really a slam-dunk for Florida being the "largest peninsula in the contiguous United States." I think it probably is, but Michigan was still a pretty big (and mitten shaped) negbait!
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer »

Peter the accountant wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:23 pm
This Is Kirk! wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:49 pmMichigan is essentially ALL peninsula.
Is it? On MI's east side, you've got a significant land connection to Canada, from Detroit, through Lake St. Clair, and on to the southern tip of Lake Huron. Arguably, the eastern side of the peninsula starts at that southern point of Lake Huron.

If you draw a line from there to the point where the Indiana/Michigan border meets Lake Michigan and call that the peninsula, you'd lop off a portion of Michigan's land area. Eyeballing it, I'd guess somewhere around 20% of the LP of MI would not be a peninsula with this definition.
Michigan has no land connection to Canada whatsoever.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by mikebdoss »

Is a river a sufficient waterway to make a land mass into a peninsula? Does it matter how wide that river is? What if that river freezes?
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by Peter the accountant »

Hacker is a golf term?!
Hacker is to golf as TPH is to math. :)

(Sorry, TPH. That was just too good for me to resist!)

For the record, I am decidedly a hacker at golf.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by Wheatley »

TenPoundHammer wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:37 pm
JemRiffster wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:34 pm
TenPoundHammer wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:03 pm I saw no way to pick Northern Ireland in Best Short Film at $200. What wsa the TOM there? That whole category was miles over my head.
"The Troubles" was the name given to the decades-long violent conflict in N. Ireland between Irish nationalists/republicans (who want N. Ireland to join the Republic of Ireland and are generally Catholic) and Unionists/loyalists (who want N. Ireland to remain in the United Kingdom and are generally Protestant).
Nothing in that sentence rings even the faintest of bells for me.
YOK "The Troubles" was a conflict between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and only one of those two is part of the UK.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by MattKnowles »

TenPoundHammer wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:03 pm
Peter the accountant wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:23 pm
This Is Kirk! wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:49 pmMichigan is essentially ALL peninsula.
Is it? On MI's east side, you've got a significant land connection to Canada, from Detroit, through Lake St. Clair, and on to the southern tip of Lake Huron. Arguably, the eastern side of the peninsula starts at that southern point of Lake Huron.

If you draw a line from there to the point where the Indiana/Michigan border meets Lake Michigan and call that the peninsula, you'd lop off a portion of Michigan's land area. Eyeballing it, I'd guess somewhere around 20% of the LP of MI would not be a peninsula with this definition.
Michigan has no land connection to Canada whatsoever.
This conversation is leading deeper into the technical definition of peninsula than any other conversation I'll ever notice for my entire life.

I think Michigan should be accepted as an alternative correct answer but that Florida is the correct answer. It depends on how you define a peninsula.

Lower Michigan does not have a land connection with Canada as TPH pointed out. There are rivers flowing between Michigan and Canada and there is technically a separation with water. However, peninsulas are usually separated from land entirely and in this case the land is close enough that you can build a bridge across the river and create a path. I can't walk from Florida to Cuba but I can walk from Michigan to Canada. I don't know if it satisfies the traditional definition of a peninsula. Part of the lower part of Michigan is definitely a peninsula but I don't know if the entire thing counts.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

MattKnowles wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:22 pm However, peninsulas are usually separated from land entirely and in this case the land is close enough that you can build a bridge across the river and create a path.
You could say the same thing about Pittsburgh, being situated at the confluence of three rivers, but I would assume most people would consider downtown Pittsburgh to sit on a peninsula. Therefore the entire LP of Michigan should be considered a peninsula as well.
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