The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by QBall » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:13 pm

tiwonge wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:44 pm
These are exceptions that prove the rule. If there weren't a general rule about how top box clues should be, then people wouldn't note instances like this when they're not. The fact that you are pointing out the few exceptions suggests to me that you know this, too.
Honestly, I think it's only TPH who really gets obsessed with the top-box clue difficulty. He's got to know those clues cold. And if it's not the case, it must be obscure, even though plenty here on the board explain how and why they got there ... and then as noted many times, he's mad that we know stuff that he doesn't.

So the fact that a top-box clue is polling at 4% probably gives him a little joy because a lot of people here didn't know it, so his grousing about a top-box clue is actually legitimate for once. Sometimes clues are duds, it happens.

I think he likes it when things are super-hard for even other boardies because we're now on his level in knowing stuff, while most of the time we just shrug it off and move on. Because, seriously, why do you remember/bring up only the super-stumper clues when discussing clue difficulty?

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:22 pm

Or when people do get a top box that I feel is obscure, and their best reason is "I just kinda sorta vaguely took a stab at it". Like all the people who said they got Silver Spring = Maryland in the top box, and their reason was uniformly "I kinda sorta barely vaguely felt it way in the back of my head".

Seaborgium himself said:
it jibed with the shape (of the writing), sound (of the words), and feel (of speaking them) that crystallized in my mind when presented with “Silver Spring” and the imaginary blank I gave it to fill.
That has to be the most nebulous path to a top box get that I've ever seen in my life. A completely shot in the dark WAG with nothing but "It sounds right" being what led you to the correct response.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by tiwonge » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:25 pm

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:22 pm
Or when people do get a top box that I feel is obscure, and their best reason is "I just kinda sorta vaguely took a stab at it". Like all the people who said they got Silver Spring = Maryland in the top box, and their reason was uniformly "I kinda sorta barely vaguely felt it way in the back of my head".

Seaborgium himself said:
it jibed with the shape (of the writing), sound (of the words), and feel (of speaking them) that crystallized in my mind when presented with “Silver Spring” and the imaginary blank I gave it to fill.
That has to be the most nebulous path to a top box get that I've ever seen in my life. A completely shot in the dark WAG with nothing but "It sounds right" being what led you to the correct response.
How long ago was this? How many top level clues have there been since then? How many of these were answered by the shape of the word on a WAG, and not by either knowing the answer or by guessing the most obvious answer? Why do you extrapolate a rule from the one clue, and not from the hundreds?

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:31 pm

tiwonge wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:25 pm
How long ago was this? How many top level clues have there been since then? How many of these were answered by the shape of the word on a WAG, and not by either knowing the answer or by guessing the most obvious answer? Why do you extrapolate a rule from the one clue, and not from the hundreds?
Because of the rampant inconsistency in how to get clues. Sometimes you know it cold; sometimes you reason it out; sometimes you take a leap of faith; sometimes you belch into the mic and it's right. It's so freakishly random that any aberration of that sort makes me gunshy as all hell, afraid that I'm gonna get Gigi Grazer'd or Silver Spring'd or Me and Earl and the Dying Girl'd again. How do I know that any given clue won't be a total trap?
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:37 pm

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:31 pm
tiwonge wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:25 pm
How long ago was this? How many top level clues have there been since then? How many of these were answered by the shape of the word on a WAG, and not by either knowing the answer or by guessing the most obvious answer? Why do you extrapolate a rule from the one clue, and not from the hundreds?
Because of the rampant inconsistency in how to get clues. Sometimes you know it cold; sometimes you reason it out; sometimes you take a leap of faith; sometimes you belch into the mic and it's right. It's so freakishly random that any aberration of that sort makes me gunshy as all hell, afraid that I'm gonna get Gigi Grazer'd or Silver Spring'd or Me and Earl and the Dying Girl'd again. How do I know that any given clue won't be a total trap?
You don't. Glad to help.

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:49 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:37 pm
You don't. Glad to help.
Again, once bitten twice shy. Me and Earl-esque top boxes are such anomalies that they leave me all the more convinced that the game is only slightly less random than Numberwang.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by heppm01 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:28 pm

Well, I guess it's time we came clean with you. For the last 140 pages we have been yanking your chain. You are absolutely right - there is no relationship between the clues and the "correct" responses. The contestants on the show have rigorous rehearsals where they practice giving random responses. We have an elaborate charade going on here in which some of us claim to have gotten certain clues right and come up with these ridiculous chains of thought that supposedly justifies it. Every week we run a phony poll to display a make-believe distribution; in reality, we have a massive online chat going on behind your back where we carefully orchestrate our responses to cause you the maximum amount of grief.

But on the bright side, now that you know the secret you are on the inside and can take part when we do the same thing to the next new person to join.

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by Ironhorse » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:25 pm

tiwonge wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:09 am

Can you write a plausible category and clue where Vancouver or Everett would plausibly be the top box? It's just not going to happen, unless there's a special episode only for residents of Washington, or something.
This Washington city shares its name with the home of the NHL's Canucks.
Never been on J!, but once won a knockoff version that aired on local access TV.

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by tiwonge » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:59 pm

Ironhorse wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:25 pm
tiwonge wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:09 am

Can you write a plausible category and clue where Vancouver or Everett would plausibly be the top box? It's just not going to happen, unless there's a special episode only for residents of Washington, or something.
This Washington city shares its name with the home of the NHL's Canucks.
I think in order for that to be a top row clue, you'll probably need a gimme, like the city being across the border. Given how poorly sports play on Jeopardy!, I don't know that I'd expect a non-American NHL city to be gettable for the top clue, especially given the lack of exposure the Canucks have. (Checking Wikipedia, no titles, three Finals appearances in 47 years of franchise history, and nothing that really stands out.)

"This Washington city shares its name with the home of the NHL's Canucks, just across the border."

This suggests that it is an important west coast Canadian city, which I think is good enough for a top row clue. (I suppose you could also do this with an appropriate category.)

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:04 pm

Okay, let me break this one down:
Congress met in June 1778 to sign these but found errors in the official copy; it had to reconvene with a new set in July
I looked at the clue during the break. No matter how much I poked at these words, nothing came out.

Looking at it now, it's obvious: a document early in the US's history. "These" means that it has a plural name. That's all blatantly obvious after the fact.

But every time, I just brick instantly and completely stop thinking the second the clue comes up. Is it a mental block?
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:38 pm

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:22 pm
Or when people do get a top box that I feel is obscure, and their best reason is "I just kinda sorta vaguely took a stab at it". Like all the people who said they got Silver Spring = Maryland in the top box, and their reason was uniformly "I kinda sorta barely vaguely felt it way in the back of my head".

Seaborgium himself said:
it jibed with the shape (of the writing), sound (of the words), and feel (of speaking them) that crystallized in my mind when presented with “Silver Spring” and the imaginary blank I gave it to fill.
That has to be the most nebulous path to a top box get that I've ever seen in my life. A completely shot in the dark WAG with nothing but "It sounds right" being what led you to the correct response.
I'm sorry that "the square peg fits in the square hole" is nebulous for you.

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:39 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:38 pm
TenPoundHammer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:22 pm
Or when people do get a top box that I feel is obscure, and their best reason is "I just kinda sorta vaguely took a stab at it". Like all the people who said they got Silver Spring = Maryland in the top box, and their reason was uniformly "I kinda sorta barely vaguely felt it way in the back of my head".

Seaborgium himself said:
it jibed with the shape (of the writing), sound (of the words), and feel (of speaking them) that crystallized in my mind when presented with “Silver Spring” and the imaginary blank I gave it to fill.
That has to be the most nebulous path to a top box get that I've ever seen in my life. A completely shot in the dark WAG with nothing but "It sounds right" being what led you to the correct response.
I'm sorry that "the square peg fits in the square hole" is obscure for you.
"Silver Spring, Kentucky" and "Silver Spring, Florida" and "Silver Spring, Ohio" all "jibe with the shape of the writing" just as well to me, probably even better than Maryland does. Do you perhaps have synesthesia?
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:14 pm

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:39 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:38 pm
TenPoundHammer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:22 pm
Or when people do get a top box that I feel is obscure, and their best reason is "I just kinda sorta vaguely took a stab at it". Like all the people who said they got Silver Spring = Maryland in the top box, and their reason was uniformly "I kinda sorta barely vaguely felt it way in the back of my head".

Seaborgium himself said:
it jibed with the shape (of the writing), sound (of the words), and feel (of speaking them) that crystallized in my mind when presented with “Silver Spring” and the imaginary blank I gave it to fill.
That has to be the most nebulous path to a top box get that I've ever seen in my life. A completely shot in the dark WAG with nothing but "It sounds right" being what led you to the correct response.
I'm sorry that "the square peg fits in the square hole" is obscure for you.
"Silver Spring, Kentucky" and "Silver Spring, Florida" and "Silver Spring, Ohio" all "jibe with the shape of the writing" just as well to me, probably even better than Maryland does. Do you perhaps have synesthesia?
What part of there being three sensory components to my memory of words and phrases didn't you understand? "Jibe" didn't mean "go nicely with"; it meant "fit physically."

I once saw a TED talk where Daniel Tammet attempted to have the audience guess about the meaning of the Icelandic word hnugginn because his synesthetic reaction to the word happened to jibe with the meaning of it and (if I correctly understood what he was getting at) he assumed that that reaction should be universal to English speakers. The audience guessed wrong: the word means "sad," and the audience failed the 50/50 with "happy." (I got it wrong too, seeing the word maybe as a mixture of "hug" and "snuggle" and getting warmth and comfort, and therefore happiness, out of it.)

My point in bringing that up is that I didn't guess Maryland in a vacuum where I had a synesthetic response to "Silver Spring" with absolutely no facts to go on; I guessed it as someone who has certainly encountered "Silver Spring, Maryland" in spoken word or writing before without being entirely sure exactly where, and, much like when I sing along with a song I haven't thought about, let alone heard, in years (successfully, word for word and note for note), knew exactly what came next upon hearing Silver Spring. I was trying to explain that my memory of words and phrases is auditory, visual, and tactile, which made Maryland much more than a 2% shot in the dark that happened to land in the right spot.

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:31 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:14 pm
What part of there being three sensory components to my memory of words and phrases didn't you understand? "Jibe" didn't mean "go nicely with"; it meant "fit physically."

I once saw a TED talk where Daniel Tammet attempted to have the audience guess about the meaning of the Icelandic word hnugginn because his synesthetic reaction to the word happened to jibe with the meaning of it and (if I correctly understood what he was getting at) he assumed that that reaction should be universal to English speakers. The audience guessed wrong: the word means "sad," and the audience failed the 50/50 with "happy." (I got it wrong too, seeing the word maybe as a mixture of "hug" and "snuggle" and getting warmth and comfort, and therefore happiness, out of it.)

My point in bringing that up is that I didn't guess Maryland in a vacuum where I had a synesthetic response to "Silver Spring" with absolutely no facts to go on; I guessed it as someone who has certainly encountered "Silver Spring, Maryland" in spoken word or writing before without being entirely sure exactly where, and, much like when I sing along with a song I haven't thought about, let alone heard, in years (successfully, word for word and note for note), knew exactly what came next upon hearing Silver Spring. I was trying to explain that my memory of words and phrases is auditory, visual, and tactile, which made Maryland much more than a 2% shot in the dark that happened to land in the right spot.

I've encountered "Silver Spring, Maryland" many times too, but I didn't get the clue right. The thing about memory is, it's patchy as all hell. You misremember things. You conflate things. Hinging a guess entirely off a vague memory you almost have is a dangerous proposition. It's entirely possible to conflate it with Spring Hill, Tennessee or Silver City, Michigan or the SpringHill Suites by Marriott in Mishawaka, Indiana. If you're going all the way back to the murky depths like you say you are, then how do you know you're not gonna pull out a totally wrong answer?

It's possible to listen to a song hundreds of times, and still get the words wrong when you sing along, even if it's a song you really like. It's possible to suddenly forget the way to a place you go to every week, or what aisle bread is on at your local Walmart. It's possible that you have a total airhead moment and space out on something well within your wheelhouse. Trusting entirely off your memory is a dangerous proposition, and there HAS to be a better way to get such a clue than "I had the vaguest of notions that this word might possibly maybe kinda sorta almost vaguely fit into this blank even though I have no concrete evidence whatsoever toward that."
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:41 pm

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:31 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:14 pm
What part of there being three sensory components to my memory of words and phrases didn't you understand? "Jibe" didn't mean "go nicely with"; it meant "fit physically."

I once saw a TED talk where Daniel Tammet attempted to have the audience guess about the meaning of the Icelandic word hnugginn because his synesthetic reaction to the word happened to jibe with the meaning of it and (if I correctly understood what he was getting at) he assumed that that reaction should be universal to English speakers. The audience guessed wrong: the word means "sad," and the audience failed the 50/50 with "happy." (I got it wrong too, seeing the word maybe as a mixture of "hug" and "snuggle" and getting warmth and comfort, and therefore happiness, out of it.)

My point in bringing that up is that I didn't guess Maryland in a vacuum where I had a synesthetic response to "Silver Spring" with absolutely no facts to go on; I guessed it as someone who has certainly encountered "Silver Spring, Maryland" in spoken word or writing before without being entirely sure exactly where, and, much like when I sing along with a song I haven't thought about, let alone heard, in years (successfully, word for word and note for note), knew exactly what came next upon hearing Silver Spring. I was trying to explain that my memory of words and phrases is auditory, visual, and tactile, which made Maryland much more than a 2% shot in the dark that happened to land in the right spot.

I've encountered "Silver Spring, Maryland" many times too, but I didn't get the clue right. The thing about memory is, it's patchy as all hell. You misremember things. You conflate things. Hinging a guess entirely off a vague memory you almost have is a dangerous proposition. It's entirely possible to conflate it with Spring Hill, Tennessee or Silver City, Michigan or the SpringHill Suites by Marriott in Mishawaka, Indiana. If you're going all the way back to the murky depths like you say you are, then how do you know you're not gonna pull out a totally wrong answer?

It's possible to listen to a song hundreds of times, and still get the words wrong when you sing along, even if it's a song you really like. It's possible to suddenly forget the way to a place you go to every week, or what aisle bread is on at your local Walmart. It's possible that you have a total airhead moment and space out on something well within your wheelhouse. Trusting entirely off your memory is a dangerous proposition, and there HAS to be a better way to get such a clue than "I had the vaguest of notions that this word might possibly maybe kinda sorta almost vaguely fit into this blank even though I have no concrete evidence whatsoever toward that."
What the fuck do you think Jeopardy is if it's not supposed to involve trusting one's own memory?

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:45 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:41 pm
What the fuck do you think Jeopardy is if it's not supposed to involve trusting one's own memory?
There's a difference between knowing something outright, putting the pieces together, and just plain "I pulled this entirely out of my ass." And "I kinda guessed that Silver Spring is possibly maybe in Maryland because I might have heard it once" is definitely "I pulled this entirely out of my ass."
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:50 pm

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:45 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:41 pm
What the fuck do you think Jeopardy is if it's not supposed to involve trusting one's own memory?
There's a difference between knowing something outright, putting the pieces together, and just plain "I pulled this entirely out of my ass." And "I kinda guessed that Silver Spring is possibly maybe in Maryland because I might have heard it once" is definitely "I pulled this entirely out of my ass."
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:53 pm

All right, fine, so my brain just doesn't work the same way as yours.

Wanna explain why I had nothing on tonight's FJ!? The key words were right there:
Congress met in June 1778 to sign these but found errors in the official copy; it had to reconvene with a new set in July
"Blah blah blah, document early in the US' life that's obviously not the Constitution". I know what the Articles of Confederation were. But I just hit a brick wall mentally and couldn't think of anything at all.

Why do I so often have literally nothing? I stared at the clue for a good 5 minutes and nothing surfaced.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by tiwonge » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:03 am

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:53 pm
Why do I so often have literally nothing? I stared at the clue for a good 5 minutes and nothing surfaced.
Maybe you should try that memory thing.

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:07 am

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:53 pm
All right, fine, so my brain just doesn't work the same way as yours.

Wanna explain why I had nothing on tonight's FJ!? The key words were right there:
Congress met in June 1778 to sign these but found errors in the official copy; it had to reconvene with a new set in July
"Blah blah blah, document early in the US' life that's obviously not the Constitution". I know what the Articles of Confederation were. But I just hit a brick wall mentally and couldn't think of anything at all.

Why do I so often have literally nothing? I stared at the clue for a good 5 minutes and nothing surfaced.
You've spent so long refusing to take guesses that your brain has finally caught up with your strategy?

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