The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

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MattKnowles
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by MattKnowles » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:17 am

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:53 pm
All right, fine, so my brain just doesn't work the same way as yours.

Wanna explain why I had nothing on tonight's FJ!? The key words were right there:
Congress met in June 1778 to sign these but found errors in the official copy; it had to reconvene with a new set in July
"Blah blah blah, document early in the US' life that's obviously not the Constitution". I know what the Articles of Confederation were. But I just hit a brick wall mentally and couldn't think of anything at all.

Why do I so often have literally nothing? I stared at the clue for a good 5 minutes and nothing surfaced.
The wording "Congress/1778/sign these" led me to think of an important early American document. Next I started thinking of the different documents constitution/declaration of independence/bill of rights/articles of federation/federalist papers. Next I started reviewing each one to see if it fit the clue. Constitution didn't work because I knew it was signed later. Declaration of Independence didn't work because that was signed before the revolutionary war. Bill of Rights didn't work for the same reason as the Constitution. The Federalist Papers didn't work because those were just editorial and not an act of Congress in any way. The Articles of Confederation worked and was selected as my answer. This all happened very quickly or immediately and it happened automatically without my brain having to articulate everything it was doing via inner voice. It just made those series of connections one after another and then it compared the facts I knew about the possible answers with the facts presented in the clues.

I can't explain your thought process or why it's different. I'm not sure if I'm even explaining my thought process correctly. I could be presenting an inaccurate picture based only on what I thought happened or only on how I idealize the process to work. At what step did your process differ from mine?

Did you immediately realize the answer was an important early American document?

If you did, did you also think of several important early American documents?

If you did, did you also you compare your knowledge of these documents to cross check against the clue?

You already mentioned you realized it was an early American document but didn't realize it was the Articles of Confederation. It appears you're not creating good lists of things in a way you can easily recall. When most of us are given a category or keywords we automatically populate a list of things that completely covers the category. It seems like you're not doing that. Have you tried memorizing lists of things as a study aid? Do you remember the lists some time after you stop studying them?

I think a lot of being good at Jeopardy! is having the complete list available as a reference. For example if you know all 12 signs of the zodiac you'll get most of the clues correct because you'll know it can only be one of the 12 signs. If you can only think of 10 or 11 of the signs then it's going to be much much more difficult because you'll have 10 or 11 answers but also "some other" answer that could be anything. Having a comprehensive list immediately changes it from "could be anything" to "one of these 12 things." Most of the things on Jeopardy! can be broken down into lists that way and a lot of us have a lot of complete lists. US Presidents, US States, countries, capitals, 7 dwarves, birthstones, gemstones, etc...

At some point most of us probably sat down and listed all the different early American documents to the point that we were confident that there was no other document that we didn't know about. Did you ever do that?
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:24 am

MattKnowles wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:17 am
I can't explain your thought process or why it's different. I'm not sure if I'm even explaining my thought process correctly. I could be presenting an inaccurate picture based only on what I thought happened or only on how I idealize the process to work. At what step did your process differ from mine?

Did you immediately realize the answer was an important early American document?

If you did, did you also think of several important early American documents?

If you did, did you also you compare your knowledge of these documents to cross check against the clue?
My thought process mainly consisted of "Uhhhhhhhhhh.... well, not the Constitution..... I think?" And even in 5 minutes, that was as far as I got. I know what the Articles of Confederation are, but they just never surfaced.
MattKnowles wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:17 am
Have you tried memorizing lists of things as a study aid? Do you remember the lists some time after you stop studying them?
Yes to the first, no to the second. I've tried memorizing the six steps of troubleshooting, but nothing works. Saying them out loud for minutes on end never works. Flash cards never work. Writing them down and then reading them back never works. And that's only six things!
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by MattKnowles » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:47 am

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:24 am
MattKnowles wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:17 am
Have you tried memorizing lists of things as a study aid? Do you remember the lists some time after you stop studying them?
Yes to the first, no to the second. I've tried memorizing the six steps of troubleshooting, but nothing works. Saying them out loud for minutes on end never works. Flash cards never work. Writing them down and then reading them back never works. And that's only six things!
Keep trying I guess. Try different things until you find something that works.

Being able to remember a list of things in order to have a complete set of possible answers is a pretty important part of answering trivia questions. If you're not able to recall a full list then you're going to have a lot of trouble with clues.

If your brain works differently then it might be harder for you but the only way to get better is to keep trying. Maybe try memorizing short lists like birthstones, zodiac signs, and triple crown of horse racing winners.

Are there any lists you do have memorized? Can you name every fast food restaurant within 3 miles of your home? Can you name all the notes in an octave?
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:58 am

MattKnowles wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:47 am
Keep trying I guess. Try different things until you find something that works.
That's the problem, nothing has. I seem to have severe memory leakage.
MattKnowles wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:47 am
If your brain works differently then it might be harder for you but the only way to get better is to keep trying. Maybe try memorizing short lists like birthstones, zodiac signs, and triple crown of horse racing winners.
I have. But even if a short list does manage to stick in my memory, there's always one that eludes me when I need it. There are only 7 countries in Central America, but despite active attempts to remember them, the last few times a clue has needed them, I've managed to blank on the ones that are actually the correct response.
MattKnowles wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:47 am
Are there any lists you do have memorized? Can you name every fast food restaurant within 3 miles of your home?
Not consistently. I have a tendency to forget our Dairy Queen, even though it's literally the closest fast food to my house.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by RKane » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:13 am

MattKnowles wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:17 am
For example if you know all 12 signs of the zodiac you'll get most of the clues correct because you'll know it can only be one of the 12 signs. If you can only think of 10 or 11 of the signs then it's going to be much much more difficult because you'll have 10 or 11 answers but also "some other" answer that could be literally anything.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by BigDaddyMatty » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:23 pm

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:14 pm
They ask about the tiny town of Alcoa, TN all the time because of its association with aluminum.
This is false, by the way. The town has been mentioned exactly once in an archived clue, and then it was just window dressing on a non-aluminum-related clue:

#6883, aired 2014-07-16 SMART STREETS $1600: Alcoa, Tenn. has this street named for a Scottish steam pioneer, & hilarity must ensue when Alcoans give directions
SpoilerShow
This clue is really just asking "What Scottish steam pioneer has a name that would sound funny/be confusing if included in a list of directions?" The correct response is (James) Watt, which sounds like "what."
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:40 pm

tiwonge wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:09 am
Can you write a plausible category and clue where Vancouver or Everett would plausibly be the top box? It's just not going to happen, unless there's a special episode only for residents of Washington, or something.
"The Boeing factory in this city north of Seattle is the world's largest building by volume."

OK, this seems pretty difficult for a top-row clue. I work here so it's hard for me to gauge the difficulty.

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by BigDaddyMatty » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:54 pm

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:40 pm
tiwonge wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:09 am
Can you write a plausible category and clue where Vancouver or Everett would plausibly be the top box? It's just not going to happen, unless there's a special episode only for residents of Washington, or something.
"The Boeing factory in this city north of Seattle is the world's largest building by volume."

OK, this seems pretty difficult for a top-row clue. I work here so it's hard for me to gauge the difficulty.
Yeah, this seems more like fourth-row difficulty, maybe third.

The larger point, though, is not that some other city in Washington could never be a top-row clue. With the right TOM, very many things appear in the top row and are gotten easily. The key takeaway, Hammer, is that if a top-row clue provides no seemingly relevant information other than "city in _____," the correct response is very likely to be the most well-known city in _____.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by Bamaman » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:54 pm

I think Redmond is a bit tough for the top box. But the others, in a clue as TPH wrote them, should be fine there.

Double talk city?
State capital?
A city that starts with "Tac"?
A city with the same name as one in British Columbia?

All of those would be just fine in the top box. If the category was "Washington Cities", I'd put Redmond in the bottom and you could do random draw for the other spots.

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:19 pm

BigDaddyMatty wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:54 pm
This Is Kirk! wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:40 pm
tiwonge wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:09 am
Can you write a plausible category and clue where Vancouver or Everett would plausibly be the top box? It's just not going to happen, unless there's a special episode only for residents of Washington, or something.
"The Boeing factory in this city north of Seattle is the world's largest building by volume."

OK, this seems pretty difficult for a top-row clue. I work here so it's hard for me to gauge the difficulty.
Yeah, this seems more like fourth-row difficulty, maybe third.

The larger point, though, is not that some other city in Washington could never be a top-row clue. With the right TOM, very many things appear in the top row and are gotten easily. The key takeaway, Hammer, is that if a top-row clue provides no seemingly relevant information other than "city in _____," the correct response is very likely to be the most well-known city in _____.
Agreed. And, yes, "very likely." There's no question a curveball can be thrown on occasion, but you've got to go with the odds.

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by tiwonge » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:22 pm

BigDaddyMatty wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:54 pm
The larger point, though, is not that some other city in Washington could never be a top-row clue. With the right TOM, very many things appear in the top row and are gotten easily. The key takeaway, Hammer, is that if a top-row clue provides no seemingly relevant information other than "city in _____," the correct response is very likely to be the most well-known city in _____.
This is a very good way to sum it up.

(And, honestly, I think that writing questions might help him--or anybody--see how they're constructed, how clues interact with each other, and so on. Play the meta game a bit.)

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by Elijah Baley » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:55 pm

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:19 pm
BigDaddyMatty wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:54 pm
This Is Kirk! wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:40 pm
tiwonge wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:09 am
Can you write a plausible category and clue where Vancouver or Everett would plausibly be the top box? It's just not going to happen, unless there's a special episode only for residents of Washington, or something.
"The Boeing factory in this city north of Seattle is the world's largest building by volume."

OK, this seems pretty difficult for a top-row clue. I work here so it's hard for me to gauge the difficulty.
Yeah, this seems more like fourth-row difficulty, maybe third.

The larger point, though, is not that some other city in Washington could never be a top-row clue. With the right TOM, very many things appear in the top row and are gotten easily. The key takeaway, Hammer, is that if a top-row clue provides no seemingly relevant information other than "city in _____," the correct response is very likely to be the most well-known city in _____.
Agreed. And, yes, "very likely." There's no question a curveball can be thrown on occasion, but you've got to go with the odds.
What I've bolded is the basis of TPH's gripe; it's his impression that everyone is getting top clues by guessing - going with the odds - as opposed to some logical format that (in his mind), every clue should have. Of course, every clue would have to take a couple minutes to read so each game would probably get in 5-8 clues at most. Not exactly riveting TV.

It's really what he finally acknowledged: his ability to recall things is well below average, like in the bottom 10%, and that explains a lot.

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by 1stlvlthinker » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:05 pm

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:19 pm
There's no question a curveball can be thrown on occasion, but you've got to go with the odds.
This may be the best analogy yet. J! throws a steady stream of fastballs, and a lot of time they tip their pitches. Sure, if it comes in at you at 110 mph, you might not be able to hit it, and sometimes, they throw curves and you wind up swinging and missing. But all of this is better than just leaving the bat on your shoulder, which is what TPH has been doing this entire time.

TPH, let me know if you need help with the analogy.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by nklotz » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:20 pm

1stlvlthinker wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:05 pm
TPH, let me know if you need help with the analogy.
No offense, but I'd be shocked if TPH even knew what sport you were referring to there.

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by tiwonge » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:42 am

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:28 pm
State Consumables was tough. I had no idea on any of them. Cranberry = MA, huh?
"Bog" is supposed to help here, since cranberries are grown in bogs. (They are also a fruit notable to New England--think of the association of cranberry sauce with Thanksgiving. But "bog" is the more helpful clue.)

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:28 pm
Any reason I should know those Lees were from Virginia? I saw no TOM in the clue at all.
One of the Lees mentioned was an ancestor of Robert E. Lee, who was from Virginia. (Although I didn't remember that until after I answered--I just guessed Virginia because Robert E. Lee was the only famous Lee I could think of, and without any other clue to grab into in the question, I figured that the name was significant. Once I guessed that, then I remembered that this Lee was an ancestor of his.)

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:45 am

That's the problem. "Lee" is such a generic name that I figured it was irrelevant
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by heppm01 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:40 am

The clues rarely include irrelevant words. Not everything is going to be a keyword, but those that aren't are most likely intended to eliminate alternatives or lead in a particular direction.

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by tiwonge » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:33 pm

heppm01 wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:40 am
The clues rarely include irrelevant words. Not everything is going to be a keyword, but those that aren't are most likely intended to eliminate alternatives or lead in a particular direction.
Clues are short. In most cases, every word included is there for a reason. With some exceptions for maybe artistic license, they're not going to insert extra words to pad the size of the clue for no reason at all.

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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by BigDaddyMatty » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:24 pm

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:49 pm
Also saw no way to figure out Lady Gaga in Singers for $400. Lots of female singes can be called "flamboyant".
I think I speak for a lot of people on this board when I say that this is frustrating. The way to figure it out is quite obvious. They showed a picture of the singer's face. You have mentioned many, many times that you have great trouble distinguishing faces, particularly of famous people. OK, fine. So maybe there's no way for you to do well on these types of clues. You should still be able to recognize that the clue was straightforward.
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Re: The Official TPH Education Thread (POTENTIAL GAME DAY SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:30 pm

BigDaddyMatty wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:24 pm
TenPoundHammer wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:49 pm
Also saw no way to figure out Lady Gaga in Singers for $400. Lots of female singes can be called "flamboyant".
I think I speak for a lot of people on this board when I say that this is frustrating. The way to figure it out is quite obvious. They showed a picture of the singer's face. You have mentioned many, many times that you have great trouble distinguishing faces, particularly of famous people. OK, fine. So maybe there's no way for you to do well on these types of clues. You should still be able to recognize that the clue was straightforward.
My issue was that "flamboyant female singer" does not exclusively pinpoint Lady Gaga. There are lots of flamboyant female singers.
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