Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

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twelvefootboy
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by twelvefootboy »

BigDaddyMatty wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:22 pm
twelvefootboy wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:06 pm
BigDaddyMatty wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:10 pm
twelvefootboy wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:39 am
Proposed solution: IF two players enter FJ with a tie (and the lead), and exit with a tie (and the win), they both advance but split the sum of their final amount + the $2k second place money.

In any other case of a final tie (including a double up from third), the player with the largest bet wins (way to go, third!).
I like the first part of this a lot. The second part is unnecessary. If co-champions split the first- and second-place money, it would strongly discourage the Keith/Arthur strategy without messing with those situations where ties occur naturally.
But wasn't the tie in the first tiebreaker game also unnecessary?
My point was that the primary reason for the rule change was, presumably, to eliminate the strategic offering of a tie by a leader who could otherwise lock out his opponents. There's no good reason (that I can see, anyway) to eliminate ties that happen either by accident or because of a trailing player's bad wager. Your "split the money" rule eliminates the incentive to offer a tie rather than take an undisputed victory.
I just caught up on the game thread postings where historical tie situations were discussed. I'm not a fan of the contrived tie, and the present rule eliminates it and that's a good thing. We probably won't see another otherwise winnable game wind up like this. The right person won this time for placing the proper double up wager IMHO.

It will be a disappointment to see a double tie at end of DJ wind up with this ill-designed tiebreak because of good betting to win. I've always liked the elegance of pooling place money for ties ever since I saw it used for golf payouts.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by Vermonter »

I'd be happy to split the money every time so long as I get to return the next day. But a player in the Pool – or waiting in the wings on tape day – will probably have a different opinion, as will the production staff when they have to fly back several players thanks to 2-3 ties per week.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by ajk »

The tiebreaker is a bad idea.

I didn't like the strategic offering of ties. It's a smart move. But it's unsatisfying. Any competitive event is more fulfilling when there is a clear winner. If there were a good way to break a tie, I'd be all for it. But a race on the buzzer is horrible way to break a tie. You might as well flip a coin.

Obviously they are confined by a strict time limit that precludes, say, asking a FJ-level question, and then another, and another... but there was no compelling reason to change the procedure without a proper solution in place.

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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by BigDaddyMatty »

Vermonter wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:44 am
I'd be happy to split the money every time so long as I get to return the next day.
Would you? Keep in mind that I'm talking not about collusion between two players, but about Arthur's/your strategy of the leader offering a tie if both he and whoever happens to be in second place both get FJ! correct. Knowing that there is a very real risk in a subsequent game of a) losing on your own FJ! miss or b) another player going into FJ! with the lead/a lock and not offering a tie, you would give up $10,000 or so per game? That strikes me as extremely suboptimal.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by dhkendall »

BigDaddyMatty wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:42 pm
Vermonter wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:44 am
I'd be happy to split the money every time so long as I get to return the next day.
Would you? Keep in mind that I'm talking not about collusion between two players, but about Arthur's/your strategy of the leader offering a tie if both he and whoever happens to be in second place both get FJ! correct. Knowing that there is a very real risk in a subsequent game of a) losing on your own FJ! miss or b) another player going into FJ! with the lead/a lock and not offering a tie, you would give up $10,000 or so per game? That strikes me as extremely suboptimal.
Personally, I'm with Vermonter, mainly because I'm on record as saying one of my biggest J! pet peeves is that second and third don't get nearly enough (and I'd be quite pleased if all of a sudden they got to keep what they earned) - a tie gives "second place" much more money than if they lost the tie breaker. But I know that TPTB's goal is to have exciting television. This is why they have the current rule for second and third (and with that in mind I completely accept their reasoning - I don't like it, but I accept it. :) ) The new tiebreaker rule is actually more in line with the second and third rule and fits in well with their overall "exciting television rule", so it makes sense to me. However, just like the "second and third get consolation money rule" doesn't mean I have to like it. :)
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by twelvefootboy »

dhkendall wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:58 pm


Personally, I'm with Vermonter, mainly because I'm on record as saying one of my biggest J! pet peeves is that second and third don't get nearly enough
Amen!
dhkendall wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:58 pm
This is why they have the current rule for second and third (and with that in mind I completely accept their reasoning - I don't like it, but I accept it.
I'm sure the betting mojo would change if 2nd and 3rd kept their final amount so it's best if they bet with "house" money. But third place doesn't make expenses, dammit. Another $1K for reasonable expense and I will shut up about it. I don't like the optics of people subsidizing the show out of their own pocket.

I've only become an woke viewer since joining here, and I can't say I remember catching deliberate tie games. But I would be annoyed by them and am glad they are basically gone. However, I do think a game entering FJ as a tie would be riveting, and if both players shoot the moon and win, they should advance for battling to the finish.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by Peter the accountant »

twelvefootboy wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:44 am
But third place doesn't make expenses, dammit. Another $1K for reasonable expense and I will shut up about it. I don't like the optics of people subsidizing the show out of their own pocket.
Apologies in advance for wandering a bit off topic.

I don't understand this bit. On hand I'm hearing that it costs money for the producers to bring players back who didn't get on the show because of a tie (causing two people to play the next game instead of one). But you're saying that the 3rd place player doesn't cover expenses, which implies they have expenses.

So what is going on here? Who pays what expenses for players to get to the studio on taping days? I'm sure that prospective players have to get to audition sites on their own dime, so perhaps that's the costs you're talking about?
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by tiwonge »

Peter the accountant wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:55 am
twelvefootboy wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:44 am
But third place doesn't make expenses, dammit. Another $1K for reasonable expense and I will shut up about it. I don't like the optics of people subsidizing the show out of their own pocket.
Apologies in advance for wandering a bit off topic.

I don't understand this bit. On hand I'm hearing that it costs money for the producers to bring players back who didn't get on the show because of a tie (causing two people to play the next game instead of one). But you're saying that the 3rd place player doesn't cover expenses, which implies they have expenses.

So what is going on here? Who pays what expenses for players to get to the studio on taping days? I'm sure that prospective players have to get to audition sites on their own dime, so perhaps that's the costs you're talking about?
I think, but am not sure, that contestants pay to get there, but if the show has to bring them back (most notably returning champions who win at the end of the Wednesday taping and have to return on Tuesday), then the show pays to bring them back. I don't know if this also applies to people in the contestant pool who don't get to play and are brought back. (Alternates who might be in this situation might generally be local for this reason?)

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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by GoodStrategy »

Peter the accountant wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:55 am
But you're saying that the 3rd place player doesn't cover expenses, which implies they have expenses.
I think that's referring to that for many contestants $1,000 isn't enough to cover all of the travel and lodging expenses. That could be remedied by either 1) Sony paying for all travel and lodging expenses (other than for optional upgrades requested by the contestant) or 2) Increasing the amount of the consolation prizes.

An issue with 2) would be that unless the difference between the two prizes is kept small (e.g. $1,000 or less as it is now) you'd potentially have more players playing for second. That could partially be remedied by also instituting a house minimum for winning a game (so that if you play for the win and do win with a low score on Day 1, you don't risk going home with less by finishing in third on Day 2 than you would've had by protecting second on Day 1).

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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by squarekara »

tiwonge wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:17 am
Peter the accountant wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:55 am
twelvefootboy wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:44 am
But third place doesn't make expenses, dammit. Another $1K for reasonable expense and I will shut up about it. I don't like the optics of people subsidizing the show out of their own pocket.
Apologies in advance for wandering a bit off topic.

I don't understand this bit. On hand I'm hearing that it costs money for the producers to bring players back who didn't get on the show because of a tie (causing two people to play the next game instead of one). But you're saying that the 3rd place player doesn't cover expenses, which implies they have expenses.

So what is going on here? Who pays what expenses for players to get to the studio on taping days? I'm sure that prospective players have to get to audition sites on their own dime, so perhaps that's the costs you're talking about?
I think, but am not sure, that contestants pay to get there, but if the show has to bring them back (most notably returning champions who win at the end of the Wednesday taping and have to return on Tuesday), then the show pays to bring them back. I don't know if this also applies to people in the contestant pool who don't get to play and are brought back. (Alternates who might be in this situation might generally be local for this reason?)
On all the contestant paperwork, Sony makes it very clear that contestants pay all expenses. Even if you're offered a taping day and make it out to the studio, there's no guarantee that you'll appear on the show. I figured that covered situations when people might show up drunk or belligerent, or maybe they become ill or too nervous to cope with the demands of the taping schedule, but I guess it applies to ties as well. (The local alternates show up with the understanding that if they don't play that day, they're guaranteed a taping in the near future.) Most out-of-town contestants pay out-of-pocket to stay at one of two Culver City hotels serviced by the Sony shuttle, and, depending on the season and your corporate loyalty status, the hotel expenses can vary. If you carry over from one taping day to the next, you're still paying for your own hotel stay. As a traveller used to paying Econo-Budget-Micro cheapskate rates in the "flyover" states, I paid about FIVE or SIX times what I'm used to paying per night--even with the "Sony rate." To fly me back to LAX as returning champ, Sony arranged and paid for round-trip air travel only, not lodging, local transportation, food, or incidentals. Hell, yeah, I played for second.

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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by AFRET CMS »

squarekara wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:04 pm
tiwonge wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:17 am
Peter the accountant wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:55 am
twelvefootboy wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:44 am
But third place doesn't make expenses, dammit. Another $1K for reasonable expense and I will shut up about it. I don't like the optics of people subsidizing the show out of their own pocket.
Apologies in advance for wandering a bit off topic.

I don't understand this bit. On hand I'm hearing that it costs money for the producers to bring players back who didn't get on the show because of a tie (causing two people to play the next game instead of one). But you're saying that the 3rd place player doesn't cover expenses, which implies they have expenses.

So what is going on here? Who pays what expenses for players to get to the studio on taping days? I'm sure that prospective players have to get to audition sites on their own dime, so perhaps that's the costs you're talking about?
I think, but am not sure, that contestants pay to get there, but if the show has to bring them back (most notably returning champions who win at the end of the Wednesday taping and have to return on Tuesday), then the show pays to bring them back. I don't know if this also applies to people in the contestant pool who don't get to play and are brought back. (Alternates who might be in this situation might generally be local for this reason?)
On all the contestant paperwork, Sony makes it very clear that contestants pay all expenses. Even if you're offered a taping day and make it out to the studio, there's no guarantee that you'll appear on the show. I figured that covered situations when people might show up drunk or belligerent, or maybe they become ill or too nervous to cope with the demands of the taping schedule, but I guess it applies to ties as well. (The local alternates show up with the understanding that if they don't play that day, they're guaranteed a taping in the near future.) Most out-of-town contestants pay out-of-pocket to stay at one of two Culver City hotels serviced by the Sony shuttle, and, depending on the season and your corporate loyalty status, the hotel expenses can vary. If you carry over from one taping day to the next, you're still paying for your own hotel stay. As a traveller used to paying Econo-Budget-Micro cheapskate rates in the "flyover" states, I paid about FIVE or SIX times what I'm used to paying per night--even with the "Sony rate." To fly me back to LAX as returning champ, Sony arranged and paid for round-trip air travel only, not lodging, local transportation, food, or incidentals. Hell, yeah, I played for second.
Yes, indeed, BIG difference between second and third if you're not in contention to win. My daughter and one of our sons were able to get time off work on short notice to attend my taping day, so that was four round-trip air fares plus two hotel rooms for the first night (I stayed in a separate room so I could go to bed early while the other three stayed up until their normal hour).

That factored into our decision about whether or not to invite the kids -- air fare, hotel, food for the four of us came to about $1500-1600. We figured that worst case, one-and-done with third place, after taxes we'd get a family trip to L.A for half-price coupled with a priceless experience. Better case, finish second and clear a couple of hundred dollars, which would buy pizza at the watch party.

So, we took the kids. Would have been worth the trip regardless of the outcome.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by OntarioQuizzer »

ajk wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:19 am
there was no compelling reason to change the procedure without a proper solution in place.
This is literally how 57 of the 61 clues of the game work. How is this anything but a proper solution.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by squarekara »

OntarioQuizzer wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:46 pm
ajk wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:19 am
there was no compelling reason to change the procedure without a proper solution in place.
This is literally how 57 of the 61 clues of the game work. How is this anything but a proper solution.
The buzz-in after the written FJ just didn't do it for me. Maybe buzz-in plus confetti cannon . . . ?

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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by MarkBarrett »

$otC had tiebreakers every so often. Host Jim Perry was always great at setting the scene. This was one of the better ones:
Spoiler


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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by ajk »

OntarioQuizzer wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:46 pm
ajk wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:19 am
there was no compelling reason to change the procedure without a proper solution in place.
This is literally how 57 of the 61 clues of the game work. How is this anything but a proper solution.
In the case of those 57, you have enough questions to separate from the pack. A really good player will most likely get through the buzzer race often enough -- while also answering ones only they know -- that it isn't such a big issue. That's not the case when it's only one question.

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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by OntarioQuizzer »

ajk wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:23 pm
In the case of those 57, you have enough questions to separate from the pack. A really good player will most likely get through the buzzer race often enough -- while also answering ones only they know -- that it isn't such a big issue. That's not the case when it's only one question.
mfc248 put the clock to a recent Final Jeopardy round. It took 67 seconds for Alex to read the clue, the 30 seconds to tick down, and for the first two players' responses to be revealed.

It is literally impossible to cut a minute and seven seconds out of an episode in order to fit that sort of a tiebreaker in.

Being that the previous status quo was shown to be untenable, and the show already had a rule used in tournaments, a single-clue tiebreak is literally the only feasible solution.

Don't like it? Don't tie.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by twelvefootboy »

Peter the accountant wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:55 am
twelvefootboy wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:44 am
But third place doesn't make expenses, dammit. Another $1K for reasonable expense and I will shut up about it. I don't like the optics of people subsidizing the show out of their own pocket.
Apologies in advance for wandering a bit off topic.

I don't understand this bit. On hand I'm hearing that it costs money for the producers to bring players back who didn't get on the show because of a tie (causing two people to play the next game instead of one). But you're saying that the 3rd place player doesn't cover expenses, which implies they have expenses.

So what is going on here? Who pays what expenses for players to get to the studio on taping days? I'm sure that prospective players have to get to audition sites on their own dime, so perhaps that's the costs you're talking about?
As squarekara and afret cms have confirmed, the show doesn't pay a nickel. We still have the presumption that they pay airfare only for the Wednesday finalist to return in 1 to ? weeks.

I understand the need for administrative simplicity and they don't want to have different scales for how far you traveled or where you stayed. But you ought to plan a two night stay if you have a taping on Tuesday - ticket changes are 500-1000 dollars.
Contestants have already traveled to interviews, missed work, and then traveled to LA on their dime; just change it to $2K and $3K for the also-rans and don't be such douche-bags. Just give back the $10K that the contestants have spent.

I think a $3K/$2K consolation prize would improve the betting dynamic. It's not the show's job to bring your family, etc.., but I hope most people are able to take a full week, enjoy SoCal, and have a bucket list vacation as reward for being good enough to get 15 minutes of fame.

I'm glad we aren't watching fake ties such as Arthur Chu induced. I don't remember seeing or noticing these before, but they diminish the game. But nothing diminishes it like this 62nd question tiebreaker.

I think the most excitement would have to be a 2-way or 3-way tie going into Final Jeopardy. But what a downer if they have to settle that with a buzzer war :cry: . Simple fix is share the dollars and cue it up the next game. TPTB are you listening?
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by OntarioQuizzer »

twelvefootboy wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:21 pm
Simple fix is share the dollars and cue it up the next game. TPTB are you listening?
This isn't the only space on the Internet where so many Americans are being so wilfully ignorant towards the possibility of collusion.

It was plainly apparent to TPTB that it was becoming easier to possibly collude to tie.

Because such an action is illegal, TPTB felt they needed to close that loophole in the rules immediately. In fact, it was of such an urgent matter that they felt the need to close that loophole in the middle of a season.

"Split the $ and cue it up next game" is still a positive outcome for both players, and thus an incentive to collude is still there.
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by teapot37 »

twelvefootboy wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:21 pm
Peter the accountant wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:55 am
twelvefootboy wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:44 am
But third place doesn't make expenses, dammit. Another $1K for reasonable expense and I will shut up about it. I don't like the optics of people subsidizing the show out of their own pocket.
Apologies in advance for wandering a bit off topic.

I don't understand this bit. On hand I'm hearing that it costs money for the producers to bring players back who didn't get on the show because of a tie (causing two people to play the next game instead of one). But you're saying that the 3rd place player doesn't cover expenses, which implies they have expenses.

So what is going on here? Who pays what expenses for players to get to the studio on taping days? I'm sure that prospective players have to get to audition sites on their own dime, so perhaps that's the costs you're talking about?
As squarekara and afret cms have confirmed, the show doesn't pay a nickel. We still have the presumption that they pay airfare only for the Wednesday finalist to return in 1 to ? weeks.
They also pay for the airfare and hotel for ToC competitors (I don't know about teen/college tournaments). And yes, if you are the winner in the last game of the tape week, they will pay your airfare for the next week, but you are still on the hook for the hotel. (And they will shuttle you from the hotel in the morning, but you're on your own to get back after you're done for the day.)
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Re: Ties on Jeopardy! RIP

Post by Peter the accountant »

squarekara wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:04 pm
On all the contestant paperwork, Sony makes it very clear that contestants pay all expenses. Even if you're offered a taping day and make it out to the studio, there's no guarantee that you'll appear on the show. I figured that covered situations when people might show up drunk or belligerent, or maybe they become ill or too nervous to cope with the demands of the taping schedule, but I guess it applies to ties as well. (The local alternates show up with the understanding that if they don't play that day, they're guaranteed a taping in the near future.) Most out-of-town contestants pay out-of-pocket to stay at one of two Culver City hotels serviced by the Sony shuttle, and, depending on the season and your corporate loyalty status, the hotel expenses can vary. If you carry over from one taping day to the next, you're still paying for your own hotel stay. As a traveller used to paying Econo-Budget-Micro cheapskate rates in the "flyover" states, I paid about FIVE or SIX times what I'm used to paying per night--even with the "Sony rate." To fly me back to LAX as returning champ, Sony arranged and paid for round-trip air travel only, not lodging, local transportation, food, or incidentals. Hell, yeah, I played for second.
Thank you (and the others who also replied) for the first hand information.

As someone with a long term goal of getting into the pool, it's nice to understand the costs involved. Living fairly close to the studio (around 40 miles or so), I knew airfare wasn't a concern for me. But the other costs, mainly lodging, are not insignificant.
--Peter

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