Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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gobobbygo
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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by gobobbygo »

TomKBaltimoreBoy wrote:
OldSchoolChamp wrote:Backing into this discussion late, but I think Scott wuz robbed. TomKBaltimoreBoy to the contrary, it’s clear from all rules and precedents of Jeopardy! clue construction that a clue worded “the 1888 suite named for her” is asking for the character for whom the suite is named, not the title of the suite. There are many variant spellings of that character’s name, with varying numbers of syllables, and Scott’s spelling was certainly one of the acceptable ones. You’ll even see it spelled with two syllables, Sharzad or Shirzad. There is no doubt in my mind that Scott’s response should have been accepted. I think he has clear grounds to protest, and if I were in his position that’s just what I would do. This was a patently unfair ruling.
All due respect, OSC, but the clue is "The first movement of the 1888 suite named for her". That's quite a difference in the parsing. The suite is the subject, not the person.

If they want to bring him back they certainly have the ability to do so. But this is a rather flimsy pretext for it. The person is in a phrase that is clearly modifying the suite, which is the subject, as the rest of the clue makes clear. Scott jumped on a hasty misreading of the clue, and that happens a lot in this game. It's one of the most common ways a very intelligent person can be wrong.
All due respect, Tom, but I think you're wrong here. I don't think "were they asking for the suite or the character" is up for interpretation. It's clearly the character, NOT the suite. All you need to do is look at the articles and pronouns. "THE first movement." "THE 1888 suite." "Named for HER." The fundamental rule for parsing FJ questions is "look for the pronoun" --> usually it's "this" or "that" but in this case, it's her. They're looking for the name of the character.

Now, there is an argument to be made that the name of the character should be the name of the character in that particular work, which maybe a 3-syllable answer is acceptable, maybe it isn't. (I don't know how many different was R-K's suite has been rendered.) If the clue were something like "Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon is narrated by this character," would "Morganna" or "Morgan la Fey" be acceptable? I think she's only referred to in the actual book as "Morgaine." If the standard is "how is the character name rendered in translations/translations of the particular work?" and R-K's suite is always rendered into English as "Scheherezade," it might be irrelevant that there are other sources that refer to the same character in different works as something else.

The reason my appeal was turned down (http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=3284) wasn't that "beneath the sea" wasn't a valid translation, but rather because the category was "literary translations" and there are essentially zero English translations that use "beneath" instead of "under."

Though, the magical thinking part of me is certainly abuzz with trying to find ways to argue that if Scott comes back, I should too.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by alietr »

opusthepenguin wrote:
alietr wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote:Just for fun, though, I'll throw in a rule from Hebrew called "the syncopation of inter-vocalic He".
Can you give an example or two? I'm not coming up with what you're squawking about.
You know a little Hebrew, right? If not, apologies for what follows.

One common place this occurs is when adding the masculine singular possessive suffix to a noun. E.g. turning "horse" (sus) into "his horse" (suso). Linguistically or morphologically or whatever, that suso starts out as susahu. But the h drops out and the vowels on either side of it elide together to form the long vowel cholem-vav. Hence the syncopation (shortening by omitting a word or sound from the middle) of inter-vocalic (between vowels) He.

The same thing happens in the formation of the hiphil imperfect. The hiphil's characteristic He prefix gets leapfrogged by the prefix indicating person and number. So what would have been y'haq'til becomes yaq'til after the He drops out and the sheva and patach elide.
That might actually have been easier for me to follow with the words in Hebrew rather than transliterated, but I'm not asking for that. Thank you, my fine Kosher feathered friend.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Winchell Factor »

opusthepenguin wrote:
alietr wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote:Just for fun, though, I'll throw in a rule from Hebrew called "the syncopation of inter-vocalic He".
Can you give an example or two? I'm not coming up with what you're squawking about.
You know a little Hebrew, right? If not, apologies for what follows.

One common place this occurs is when adding the masculine singular possessive suffix to a noun. E.g. turning "horse" (sus) into "his horse" (suso). Linguistically or morphologically or whatever, that suso starts out as susahu. But the h drops out and the vowels on either side of it elide together to form the long vowel cholem-vav. Hence the syncopation (shortening by omitting a word or sound from the middle) of inter-vocalic (between vowels) He.

The same thing happens in the formation of the hiphil imperfect. The hiphil's characteristic He prefix gets leapfrogged by the prefix indicating person and number. So what would have been y'haq'til becomes yaq'til after the He drops out and the sheva and patach elide.
Seeing this here just makes my morning! (That, and the fact that I followed it.) I know you weren't talking to me, but thanks anyway, Opus.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Austin Powers »

The big problem is that they violated a big role in question writing. It's very simple - use "this" to show what you want to ask about.

"This suite named for a woman" is quite clear and really is what they should have done. We can do the same thing with "this woman" but "The suite named for this woman" isn't perfect... though I feel it is better than "named for her" (or whatever the specific wording was).

If they would use this as an ongoing convention there would be fewer problems. This seems to have gotten worse lately.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

alietr wrote:That might actually have been easier for me to follow with the words in Hebrew rather than transliterated, but I'm not asking for that. Thank you, my fine Kosher feathered friend.
Hey, now, let's be clear about this. Penguins are NOT kosher. Says here that "if a bird kills other animals regularly for its own food, eats meat, or is known to be dangerous, it's not kosher." The article goes on to mention penguins specifically. Presumably because we're "known to be dangerous." Get my drift? Now put that fork away and stop looking at me like that.

I'd prefer the examples to be in Hebrew lettering too, but I never learned how to type in Hebrew. I tried copy-pasting some stuff, but it ended up looking weird and it was a pain in the butt. Here, e.g., is what sus looked like: סוּס. I don't know if that looks right on your screen. It's barely recognizable on mine.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Volante »

opusthepenguin wrote:
Opal wrote:I will add my comments this time, instead of just reading from the sidelines. Sorry, TomKBaltimoreBoy, but the contestants would have been instructed to write "Who" or "What", and since they put "Who", it's absolutely clear they were going for the character.
I hadn't even thought about that, but it's a terrific point.
Seconded. That's about as big a smoking gun as we can get on this.
Austin Powers wrote:The big problem is that they violated a big role in question writing. It's very simple - use "this" to show what you want to ask about.

"This suite named for a woman" is quite clear and really is what they should have done. We can do the same thing with "this woman" but "The suite named for this woman" isn't perfect... though I feel it is better than "named for her" (or whatever the specific wording was).

If they would use this as an ongoing convention there would be fewer problems. This seems to have gotten worse lately.
"This suite named for a woman" is quite clear and really is what they should have done...if they were asking for the name of the suite.

The writer's deliberate refusal to put 'this' before 'suite' means they're not asking for the name of the suite. They know the power of 'this.' I can only guess they went with 'her' over 'this woman' to avoid implying she was a real person.
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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Volante »

opusthepenguin wrote:Presumably because we're "known to be dangerous."
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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by jeff6286 »

I think it may be likely that the writer(s) of this clue didn't even give any thought to whether they were asking for the name of the suite or the woman, since both have the same name. It seems like we've possibly gone too far down the rabbit hole this time and are attributing intentions to their words that they may never have intended. I do believe that the original argument, "The woman's name is sometimes spelled like the 3-syllable variant, so maybe Scott should receive credit, even thought the title of the suite doesn't spell it that way", is a strong one, and I'm guessing that if the writers had considered this angle, they would have either: 1) altered the wording to say "this suite", or 2) planned to accept any spelling variant that resembles any widely used spelling/pronunciation of the name. (How to define "widely" in this case is certainly open to interpretation.)

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by alietr »

Volante wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote:Presumably because we're "known to be dangerous."
Image
I've seen that one before, but well done, sir.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by harrumph »

Perhaps some of the writers of the FJ clue in question will see this discussion and reconsider the ruling.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

alietr wrote:
Volante wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote:Presumably because we're "known to be dangerous."
Image
I've seen that one before, but well done, sir.
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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by TomKBaltimoreBoy »

opusthepenguin wrote:
alietr wrote:
Volante wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote:Presumably because we're "known to be dangerous."
Image
I've seen that one before, but well done, sir.
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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by OldSchoolChamp »

legendneverdies wrote:
OldSchoolChamp wrote:
floridagator wrote:The “Lucretia Garfield” that Brad beat me with in 2005 was a lot less legible than that . . . .
The correct response to the Lucretia Garfield clue was Crete, Garfield's nickname for his wife.
Yep, thanks for remembering my old game better than I did myself. I’ve edited my earlier post to correct.

The main point remains: everybody but a certain boy from Baltimore understands the clue to refer to the character for whom a certain orchestral suite is named, not to the title of the suite itself. (MarkBarrett, may I suggest a question on the next weekly poll?) Scott gave one of many plausible (transliterated) spellings of her name, and should have been credited with a correct response. He should have won this game.
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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by TomKBaltimoreBoy »

OldSchoolChamp wrote:
legendneverdies wrote:
OldSchoolChamp wrote:
floridagator wrote:The “Lucretia Garfield” that Brad beat me with in 2005 was a lot less legible than that . . . .
The correct response to the Lucretia Garfield clue was Crete, Garfield's nickname for his wife.
Yep, thanks for remembering my old game better than I did myself. I’ve edited my earlier post to correct.

The main point remains: everybody but a certain boy from Baltimore understands the clue to refer to the character for whom a certain orchestral suite is named, not to the title of the suite itself. (MarkBarrett, may I suggest a question on the next weekly poll?) Scott gave one of many plausible (transliterated) spellings of her name, and should have been credited with a correct response. He should have won this game.
Everyone except this certain boy from Baltimore and the people who wrote the clue and issued the ruling, you mean. You can argue that it was a badly written clue, as AP does, but even esteemed SHC champs do not gain ex cathedra status, my friend. We do not get to issue pronouncements, merely debate the finer points.
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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Bamaman »

TomKBaltimoreBoy wrote:
Let me know when we start accepting foreign language names for things in this game.

FOOD & DRINK $800

Alex: By definition, it is what is served in a gelateria

Suzanne: What is gelato?

Alex: Hmmmm....We'll accept that. Ice cream.


I had no chance on FJ. I think they were wanting the name of the character, but I do not know enough about the story to offer an opinion on whether his response should be judged correct.

I got a chuckle when Scott said his family was big Disney fans. (His wife is the granddaughter of Roy Disney, brother of Walt).

I knew them both, but I thought Mount Vernon should have been worth less than the Hearst Castle.

I had never heard of the book, but I just said "What is Tip?". "Tip and the Gipper" sounds like a catchier title than "Tip O'Neill and the Gipper". I would hope Alex would pause for a second, giving me a chance to throw in his surname and not get negged outright only to later be given credit after someone else got an undeserved $600 when I actually got the title right in the first place.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Austin Powers »

Bamaman wrote:
TomKBaltimoreBoy wrote:
Let me know when we start accepting foreign language names for things in this game.

FOOD & DRINK $800

Alex: By definition, it is what is served in a gelateria

Suzanne: What is gelato?

Alex: Hmmmm....We'll accept that. Ice cream.


I had no chance on FJ. I think they were wanting the name of the character, but I do not know enough about the story to offer an opinion on whether his response should be judged correct.

I got a chuckle when Scott said his family was big Disney fans. (His wife is the granddaughter of Roy Disney, brother of Walt).

I knew them both, but I thought Mount Vernon should have been worth less than the Hearst Castle.

I had never heard of the book, but I just said "What is Tip?". "Tip and the Gipper" sounds like a catchier title than "Tip O'Neill and the Gipper". I would hope Alex would pause for a second, giving me a chance to throw in his surname and not get negged outright only to later be given credit after someone else got an undeserved $600 when I actually got the title right in the first place.
Gelato is a kind of ice cream, but not all ice cream is gelato. ANOTHER poorly written question from that game.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Bamaman »

According to Wikipedia, gelato is Italian for ice cream. That's where I was going with that.
Last edited by Bamaman on Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by BigDaddyMatty »

TomKBaltimoreBoy wrote:Everyone except this certain boy from Baltimore and the people who wrote the clue and issued the ruling, you mean. You can argue that it was a badly written clue, as AP does, but even esteemed SHC champs do not gain ex cathedra status, my friend. We do not get to issue pronouncements, merely debate the finer points.
I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion. Nowhere in Alex's discussion of Scott's response does he indicate that the reason that "Scherazade" is ruled incorrect is because it doesn't match the name of the suite. Furthermore, as has been pointed out, "the people who wrote the clue and issued the ruling" apparently told the contestants to begin their answers with "who."
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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by dhkendall »

Bamaman wrote:According to Wikipedia, gelato is Italian for ice cream. That's where I was going with that.
It's also a loanword in English, and a perfectly cromulent English word, so it's not a foreign language name for something.

I think you'd be looking for something like:

DIET FADS $200
Eating this citrus fruit at every meal has been a diet fad since the 1930s; a halved one epitomizes diet food

"What is pamplemousse?"

Best case scenario, you'd get a scowl and a disapproving look from Alex, but you'd be ruled correct. Worst case scenario, you'd get a scowl and a disapproving look from Alex, and you'd be ruled wrong. Either way, making Alex upset is something you don't want to do to upset your Jeopardy! karma.
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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by OrangeSAM »

MarkBarrett wrote:Just wet for the cell phone in rice? Come on, go for the laugh with drop in the toilet.
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