Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

This is where all of the games are discussed.

Moderators: alietr, trainman, econgator, dhkendall

The first movement of the 1888 suite named for her is titled "The Sea and Sindbad's Ship"

The clue clearly asks for the name of the musical suite.
3
3%
The clue clearly asks for the name of the character for whom the suite is named.
75
77%
I feel the clue is asking for the name of the musical suite, but I think it's also reasonable to interpret it as asking for the name of the character.
3
3%
I feel the clue is asking for the name of the character, but I think it's also reasonable to interpret it as asking for the name of the musical suite.
18
18%
I'm not sure whether the clue is asking for the name of the character or the suite. Either interpretation seems reasonable.
3
3%
"Who is Scherazade?" should count as a correct response for this clue.
50
51%
"Who is Scherazade?" should NOT count as a correct response for this clue.
27
28%
Scott should be credited with a win and brought back as a regular contestant to continue playing.
31
32%
Scott should NOT be credited with a win, but only because he did not write "Scherazade". (See image below.)
19
19%
 
Total votes: 98

User avatar
opusthepenguin
The Best Darn Penguin on the Whole JBoard
Posts: 7291
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:33 pm
Location: Shawnee, KS
Contact:

Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by opusthepenguin »

The clue again: The first movement of the 1888 suite named for her is titled "The Sea and Sindbad's Ship"

Here's the image of what Scott wrote:

Image

I'm once again stymied by the poll creation software. I can include an image in a poll question and it shows up just fine when I click Preview. But as soon as I click Submit, the image disappears, replaced by the BBcode. Weird.

[Edited 1 May 2020 to update image link]
Last edited by opusthepenguin on Fri May 01, 2020 12:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
MTGcollegestudent
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 282
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:39 pm

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by MTGcollegestudent »

In a way, like what RaffertyBarnes said, if this did seem to fit, Scott could easily make some extra money. But again, it's up to the judges' ruling to determine whether to accept it or not. Here's what I'm thinking:

If so, and Scott figures that he misread the clue there could be a slight chance he may think of coming back. A couple times has a misunderstood/faulty clue brought them back:

http://www.j-archive.com/showplayer.php?player_id=5620

http://www.j-archive.com/showplayer.php?player_id=2926

http://www.j-archive.com/showplayer.php?player_id=2926 - Yes, ladies and gents, this one was ToC's Bob Mesko from 2006.

http://www.j-archive.com/showplayer.php?player_id=1845

http://www.j-archive.com/showplayer.php?player_id=1858

http://www.j-archive.com/showplayer.php?player_id=6712

http://www.j-archive.com/showplayer.php?player_id=6404 - Brought back, but ineligible for a reason, and was the last time so far that they brought back a person from a previous game. Plus, when I looked at his past game, a misspoken word did cost him, probably...

However, it IS Scott's choice on his end if he wants to take the Jeopardy! Online Test again and come back on a later show, or just keep his 5 wins and wait for a while to get into the next ToC. All we as boardies can do is wait to see what Scott would seem to think. But until further notice, we'll just have to see whether or not the ruling should be deemed acceptable or unacceptable.
Jeopardy! is like History. It's a mixed bag of categories that try to test your knowledge to see if you know or can recall answers that seem familiar to the viewer.

9021amyers
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 1478
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:22 am
Location: Atlanta

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by 9021amyers »

In this case, the clue is dealing with issues of transliteration. An alternate spelling of the name is "Shahrazad," and Scott's response does not omit a syllable from that.

User avatar
This Is Kirk!
Jeopardy! Champion
Posts: 4924
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:35 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by This Is Kirk! »

MTGcollegestudent wrote:However, it IS Scott's choice on his end if he wants to take the Jeopardy! Online Test again and come back on a later show
Apparently you don't understand the rules...

As far as the poll questions I voted that his answer should have been counted as wrong, but since it's a word derived from a foreign language I could certainly be swayed that Scherazade is a possible correct pronunciation. Although it is tough to see a letter "d" in Scott's writing. I have a feeling he wrote his answer right at the end and messed up.

whatisbishkek
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 360
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 2:03 pm

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by whatisbishkek »

I don't see any way to reasonably call the second to last character in Scott's response a d. I didn't get to watch the end of the show, and I gather that's not the reason he was ruled incorrect, but if the rule is that spelling counts if it changes the pronunciation, then I don't see why the judges should consider something that isn't a certain letter to be that letter just because they're pretty sure that's what the player intended to write. I could see a case being made for that scrawl being a b, a k, or an l, but a d is a huge stretch. Although honestly, it doesn't really look like any letter at all.

seaborgium
Undefeated in Reruns
Posts: 6752
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by seaborgium »

MTGcollegestudent wrote:http://www.j-archive.com/showplayer.php?player_id=6404 - Brought back, but ineligible for a reason, and was the last time so far that they brought back a person from a previous game.
Wrong.

seaborgium
Undefeated in Reruns
Posts: 6752
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by seaborgium »

I think it's reasonable to accept "Scherazade" not because of how the character's name is rendered in its language of origin, but because the "ehe" is commonly elided into a single vowel sound in English pronunciation (at least to my ears). I didn't vote for the option that Scott should be credited with a win and brought back, though, because that's not how Jeopardy does it. I'd be fine with them bringing him back and acknowledging that the ruling cost him a win, but he's not getting $16k added to his total and being called a 6x champ if they do that.

What would be amusing would be if they brought him back for the season premiere (that would be a quick turnaround!) and he lost again; that way he would have won from Monday, July 20 through Friday, July 24, and lost on Monday, September 14, just as I did!

User avatar
jeff6286
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 4696
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:34 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by jeff6286 »

whatisbishkek wrote:I don't see any way to reasonably call the second to last character in Scott's response a d. I didn't get to watch the end of the show, and I gather that's not the reason he was ruled incorrect, but if the rule is that spelling counts if it changes the pronunciation, then I don't see why the judges should consider something that isn't a certain letter to be that letter just because they're pretty sure that's what the player intended to write. I could see a case being made for that scrawl being a b, a k, or an l, but a d is a huge stretch. Although honestly, it doesn't really look like any letter at all.
Apparently you've never tried to sign your name on a credit card transaction machine at a grocery store.

User avatar
floridagator
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 1416
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:39 am

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by floridagator »

seaborgium wrote: Wrong.
Thank you for sharing that link, Seaborgium. What exactly was the problem with that FJ clue? The aggrieved contestant's answer only has one word. How did he argue that one? I think the problem might have been with the DD "nothing new under the sun"; he was negged for the response, "under heaven."
I'd rather cuddle then have sex. If you're into grammar, you'll understand.

User avatar
alietr
Site Admin
Posts: 7025
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Bethesda, MD

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by alietr »

I voted for ambiguous. Interestingly enough, the clue lacks the word 'this', which is in, what, 90% of their clues? It's another odd phrasing that resulted in ambiguity. In my book, it can be parsed both ways, and I was wondering which they were looking for when I read the clue.

User avatar
patkav
The Chicago Mauler
Posts: 851
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:34 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by patkav »

I think it's asking for the character, but the mention of the suite gives it a specificity of spelling that wouldn't be there if there were no mention of the suite.

mahatma
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:52 pm

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by mahatma »

I look to be in the minority that said 'Scherazade' is not correct. I have alway, always heard 'Scheherazade' pronounced with 4 syllables. I hadn't looked it up or read anything beyond the poll question. It looks like my (admittedly micron-wide) experience of the subject matter was lacking in this regard.

Maybe he just got dinged for the ambiguous penultimate letter? I was under the impression that the writers/judges discuss possible alternate answers/spellings in advance. With a word that, like this, comes from another language and is reasonably interpreted in different ways, one would expect TPTB to be extra-careful in this review.

Austin Powers
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 1644
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:09 pm

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by Austin Powers »

Guy sorta knew the answer but then a lot of folks sorta know the answer and they got bupkis, too.

This is not even a close call. Before I "wrote" it out mentally in my head, I prespelled it out to make sure I got all of it. And I've always heard it pronounced with four distinct syllables.

User avatar
opusthepenguin
The Best Darn Penguin on the Whole JBoard
Posts: 7291
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:33 pm
Location: Shawnee, KS
Contact:

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by opusthepenguin »

seaborgium wrote:
MTGcollegestudent wrote:http://www.j-archive.com/showplayer.php?player_id=6404 - Brought back, but ineligible for a reason, and was the last time so far that they brought back a person from a previous game.
Wrong.
No, no. See, that's the last time a guy named Scott was brought back. :lol:

It says he was brought back due to a "faulty Final Jeopardy! clue in his original appearance". But it doesn't clarify what's wrong with the clue. Apparently those lyrics are not included in the film version of the song. Huh. I have to say that Scott Wells had less of a case for being brought back than Scott Lord does.

User avatar
alietr
Site Admin
Posts: 7025
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Bethesda, MD

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by alietr »

opusthepenguin wrote:It says he was brought back due to a "faulty Final Jeopardy! clue in his original appearance". But it doesn't clarify what's wrong with the clue. Apparently those lyrics are not included in the film version of the song. Huh. I have to say that Scott Wells had less of a case for being brought back than Scott Lord does.
Only to end up as Roger roadkill.

User avatar
Volante
Harbinger of the Doomed Lemur
Posts: 7046
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by Volante »

alietr wrote:I voted for ambiguous. Interestingly enough, the clue lacks the word 'this', which is in, what, 90% of their clues? It's another odd phrasing that resulted in ambiguity. In my book, it can be parsed both ways, and I was wondering which they were looking for when I read the clue.
Last time I remember this happening it was also Arabic themed and involved a woman's name...
http://j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=4783 , Aladdin $1200

Using 'the' before suite in the clue leads me to believe they're not specifically asking for the suite.

To go back to the Lawrence of Arabia well:
The opening of the 1962 film named for him has an overture by Maurice Jarre.

The writers wouldn't write it that way if they wanted the film title. They'd just say "The opening of this 1962 film..."
So if they wanted the suite, they'd just say "The first movement of this 1888 suite..."
Instead, they must have taken the clunky route they did specifically to go for the name and maybe didn't want to use "this woman" to avoid implying she was a real person.

Maybe that's giving the writers too much credit, but I -am- sure they know the power of 'this' in a clue so there must be a reason they deliberately avoided it.

User avatar
MDaunt
Weighed in the balance and found wanting
Posts: 729
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:04 pm

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by MDaunt »

There is no "l" (or "b") in Scheherazade.

User avatar
nklotz
Swimming in the Jeopardy! Pool
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:06 pm

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by nklotz »

MDaunt wrote:There is no "l" (or "b") in Scheherazade.
Good thing they're not judged on penmanship then. The last two letters can easily be interpreted as "de", that's not really the issue in question here. I think we'll be seeing Scott again tonight.

User avatar
This Is Kirk!
Jeopardy! Champion
Posts: 4924
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:35 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by This Is Kirk! »

nklotz wrote:The last two letters can easily be interpreted as "de"
Easily, huh? I would posit that no one would see that as "de" unless they already knew the word ended in "de" and that really shouldn't be the standard used.

User avatar
Linear Gnome
One Miner Gal
Posts: 1815
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:55 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by Linear Gnome »

Opal won the game thread by pointing out that the players had been told to start their response with "who", so the writers' intent is incontrovertible. That having been said, I think it's likely that they didn't think it made much of a difference and didn't foresee the degree to which the name of the suite "pins" the answer more closely than the name of the character.

I understand that the poll doesn't include the information provided by "who", but I still think that "her" points to the response.

Post Reply