Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

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The first movement of the 1888 suite named for her is titled "The Sea and Sindbad's Ship"

The clue clearly asks for the name of the musical suite.
3
3%
The clue clearly asks for the name of the character for whom the suite is named.
75
77%
I feel the clue is asking for the name of the musical suite, but I think it's also reasonable to interpret it as asking for the name of the character.
3
3%
I feel the clue is asking for the name of the character, but I think it's also reasonable to interpret it as asking for the name of the musical suite.
18
18%
I'm not sure whether the clue is asking for the name of the character or the suite. Either interpretation seems reasonable.
3
3%
"Who is Scherazade?" should count as a correct response for this clue.
50
51%
"Who is Scherazade?" should NOT count as a correct response for this clue.
27
28%
Scott should be credited with a win and brought back as a regular contestant to continue playing.
31
32%
Scott should NOT be credited with a win, but only because he did not write "Scherazade". (See image below.)
19
19%
 
Total votes: 98

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Budphrey
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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by Budphrey »

BigDaddyMatty wrote:You neglected to mention the issue of Rimsky-Korsakov being Russian and the name he used also therefore being in Russian.
Good point. Check this out: Шехерaзада

If we were to stick strictly with the conventional transliteration from the Russian form as Rimsky-Korsakov used it, then the only acceptable spellings would those that phonetically rendered something similar to Shekherazada. (Which is five syllables. With the "kh" being a harsher fricative than English "h.") Transliteration is (to borrow a metaphor a co-worker used recently in another context) a gnarly ball of knots. There has to be a lot of latitude in how your response is rendered in writing.

As to whether the clue was intended to point to the personage or the suite: I feel that if the writers wanted to make clear that it pointed to the suite, they would have used the pointer word "this" as in "this suite ...." As it was written, "her" is the only clear pointer word. And obviously all the contestants had "Who" at the beginning of their responses, so ipso facto that was the word they were instructed to place there. Obviously, then, the clue was intended to point to a personage, not to the title of a suite.

The only other factor was the scribbled letter that looks kind of like a "b." Regardless of precedent from earlier games, prima facie that does not in any way look like a "d." On that basis, if I were a judge (and were more observant than I was watching the actual show), I would have regretfully bounced the clue. If the appellate judging panel is inclined to forgive the scribble and accept that he intended to write "d," though, I say let's look forward to Scott's Game 6b.
Poo-tee-weet? So it goes.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by opusthepenguin »

SUMMARY OF POINTS IN FAVOR OF SCOTT LORD:
  1. The clue is asking for the name of the character, not the suite:
    1. Or, at the very least, it's reasonable to interpret the clue this way.
    2. The writers/judges clearly interpreted the clue this way when they instructed the contestants to write "Who" rather than "What" before the response.
    3. Therefore, acceptable responses cannot be limited to how the name of the suite is spelled/pronounced in English.
    4. Any response with a pronunciation that corresponds to a reasonably attested spelling/pronunciation of the character's name must count as correct.
  2. The desired response fits into TWO categories where the judges have historically allowed a great deal of slack.
    1. Words with difficult/tricky spellings
    2. Foreign or transliterated words and phrases
  3. Scott's response was "Who is Scherazade?"
    1. The penultimate letter is admittedly difficult to make out.
    2. But when compared to his "d" in two other FJ responses, that is clearly the letter he wrote.
  4. Scott's response of "Scherazade" corresponds to reasonably attested spellings/pronunciations of the character's name, ESPECIALLY when considering Point 2 above.
    1. Stories from the Thousand and One Nights trans. Edward William Lane, ed. Stanley Lane-Poole (Harvard Classics 1937) spells the name "Shahrazad".
      1. There is a reasonable phonetic correspondence between Scott's response and that spelling.
      2. Again, please take into account Point 2 above before disagreeing.
      3. Many more attestations of the "Shahrazad" spelling are available to anyone with Google.
    2. A History of the Middle East by Saul S. Friedman (McFarland 2006) spells the name "Sharazade". There are other attestations for this spelling.
    3. Inside Stories: A Narrative Journey by Judy Robertson et. al. (NILE Press 2008) spells the name "Scherezad". So did The Dublin University Magazine in May of 1852. That's one letter different from Scott's spelling, give or take a silent e. I don't think the the pronunciations would differ.
    4. Scherezade's Arabian Nights by Jane Rowland (Matador 2001) has a title that speaks for itself. "Scherezade". It's one letter off from Scott's spelling and obviously yields the same pronunciation.
    5. The 1942 film Arabian Nights spells the name "Sherazade". Both IMDB and Wikipedia get this wrong, so here's a link to a screenshot. (Bonus info: The part of Sinbad is played by Shemp Howard.) It's one silent c off from Scott's spelling and obviously yields the same pronunciation.
    6. Ethnic Angst: A Comparative Study of Bapsi Sidhwa & Rohinton Mistry by Dr. Ajay Sahebrao Deshmukh (Partridge Publishing 2014) spells the name Scherazad. So did the Literary and Philosophical Society of Liverpool back in 1889. That's Scott's spelling minus the final silent e.
    7. The Storyteller: Tales from the Arabian Nights by Anushka Ravishankar (Penguin Books, India 2011) spells the name exactly as Scott did. "Scherazade". This is the Penguin talking. 'Nuff said.
CONCLUSION: There is no basis for rejecting Scott's response of "Who is Scherazade?"

Rebuttals?

[Edited 1 May 2020 to update image links]
Last edited by opusthepenguin on Fri May 01, 2020 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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OldSchoolChamp
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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by OldSchoolChamp »

opusthepenguin wrote:SUMMARY OF POINTS IN FAVOR OF SCOTT LORD:
. . .
CONCLUSION: There is no basis for rejecting Scott's response of "Who is Scherazade?"
What he said.
Even the President of the United States sometimes must have to stand naked.

—Bob Dylan

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by patkav »

I'm convinced now.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by bpmod »

OldSchoolChamp wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote:SUMMARY OF POINTS IN FAVOR OF SCOTT LORD:
. . .
CONCLUSION: There is no basis for rejecting Scott's response of "Who is Scherazade?"
What he said.
ditto

Brian
...but the senator, while insisting he was not intoxicated, could not explain his nudity.

If I had 50 cents for every math question I got right, I'd have $6.30 by now.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by dhkendall »

My "Sherhezade" is still bad though right?
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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by opusthepenguin »

dhkendall wrote:My "Sherhezade" is still bad though right?
I wouldn't advise appealing a negative ruling. But I wouldn't be bothered and only slightly surprised by a ruling in your favor.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by econgator »

opusthepenguin wrote:Image

It's very mildly unfortunate for Scott's case that the d in his Monday FJ is the least d-like. It's got the least protrusion to the left and the most what-the-heck-is-that-supposed-to-be going on to the right. That said, I still think it is VERY clear that all three letters are the same letter, the letter d.
After seeing this, I'm willing to give him the "d".

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by dhkendall »

opusthepenguin wrote:
dhkendall wrote:My "Sherhezade" is still bad though right?
I wouldn't advise appealing a negative ruling. But I wouldn't be bothered and only slightly surprised by a ruling in your favor.
Well I wasn't on the show, so I wouldn't appeal a negative ruling from an actual show judge. But I'm just saying with the reexamination of Scott's spelling I thought mine might ride the coat tails.
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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by MDaunt »

opusthepenguin wrote:
And if anyone wants to look just at the letter in question:

Image
So, he should have been out like three games earlier?

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by opusthepenguin »

MDaunt wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote:
And if anyone wants to look just at the letter in question:

Image
So, he should have been out like three games earlier?
:lol:

Either that or not at all. By the third time, he gets granlfathereb in.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by seaborgium »

MDaunt wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote:
And if anyone wants to look just at the letter in question:

Image
So, he should have been out like three games earlier?
no, he had a runaway

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by patkav »

opusthepenguin wrote: By the third time, he gets granlfathereb in.
You just made me chortle.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by opusthepenguin »

patkav wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote: By the third time, he gets granlfathereb in.
You just made me chortle.
Woohoo! That may be a first for me. I remember one time I made Linear Gnome guffaw. That was another special moment. I should start keeping track and try to collect 'em all.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by opusthepenguin »

seaborgium wrote:
MDaunt wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote:
And if anyone wants to look just at the letter in question:

Image
So, he should have been out like three games earlier?
no, he had a runaway
And the second time he didn't, but he still would have won.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by MDaunt »

opusthepenguin wrote:
patkav wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote: By the third time, he gets granlfathereb in.
You just made me chortle.
Woohoo! That may be a first for me. I remember one time I made Linear Gnome guffaw. That was another special moment. I should start keeping track and try to collect 'em all.
I tittered...a bit.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by opusthepenguin »

MDaunt wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote:
patkav wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote: By the third time, he gets granlfathereb in.
You just made me chortle.
Woohoo! That may be a first for me. I remember one time I made Linear Gnome guffaw. That was another special moment. I should start keeping track and try to collect 'em all.
I tittered...a bit.
Hmmm. I'm going to hold out for a full blown titter. If I start cutting myself slack this early in the game, it won't be as fun. I appreciate it, though. Even if I get a bigger titter down the road, you'll always be my first.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by Vanya »

Volante wrote: To go back to the Lawrence of Arabia well:
The opening of the 1962 film named for him has an overture by Maurice Jarre.

The writers wouldn't write it that way if they wanted the film title. They'd just say "The opening of this 1962 film..."
So if they wanted the suite, they'd just say "The first movement of this 1888 suite..."
Instead, they must have taken the clunky route they did specifically to go for the name and maybe didn't want to use "this woman" to avoid implying she was a real person.

Maybe that's giving the writers too much credit, but I -am- sure they know the power of 'this' in a clue so there must be a reason they deliberately avoided it.
Yeahbut, Lawrence of Arabia is an acceptable way to refer to T. E. Lawrence, imo.


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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by opusthepenguin »

Vanya wrote:"The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honor."
- T. E. Lawrence

Some things never change.
What are you talking about? I mean, just for starters, it's not called Mesopotamia anymore.

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Re: Monday, July 27, 2015 FJ Parsing Poll [SPOILER]

Post by patkav »

opusthepenguin wrote:
patkav wrote:
opusthepenguin wrote: By the third time, he gets granlfathereb in.
You just made me chortle.
Woohoo! That may be a first for me. I remember one time I made Linear Gnome guffaw. That was another special moment. I should start keeping track and try to collect 'em all.
I started to type out guffaw, but honesty compelled me to shift it to chortle. I'll be sure to note the next giggle and chuckle, as well.

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