Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Winchell Factor »

DysonSphere wrote:
I would contend that anybody who objects to the sexual harassment of women online less than vigorously is not doing his or her part.
I object to the sexual harassment of women online. Vigorously so.

This doesn't prevent any harassment, and in some cases may even exacerbate it. Trolls don't care.
I am having a hard time reconciling this statement with your opening position, "Don't politicize Jeopardy!" You may be able to square the two, but I can't see how to do it.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by TheSunWillComeOut »

DysonSphere wrote:
I would contend that anybody who objects to the sexual harassment of women online less than vigorously is not doing his or her part.
I object to the sexual harassment of women online. Vigorously so.

This doesn't prevent any harassment, and in some cases may even exacerbate it. Trolls don't care.
So far, all we've seen you do is object to the objection against harassment.

Please show your work for your theory that speaking out against harassment exacerbates it more than saying "There's nothing we can do, we just have to let it happen." In my experience, it has greatly helped. There are many studies that have shown that harassers and abusers use the casual acceptance/apathy of people in their circle as proof that what they are doing is socially condoned. When faced with the threat of becoming a pariah in their circle for their antisocial, dangerous actions, many will back down, lest they lose the respect of the women AND men with whom they associate, leaving them friendless. How do you think every single social issue since the dawn of humanity has been solved, by people sticking their heads in the sand and saying, "Let's just not talk about it, it doesn't help"?

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Winchell Factor »

CailinGaoilge wrote: But do you 'object' in your head, or do you object by challenging it when you see it?

Take a look at the Jeopardy! Facebook page. You'll see Vaughn (and other former J! contestants) calling out people who harass, bully or post nasty personal remarks about current contestants. That is the kind of "objecting" to harassment which does get results: even if it doesn't cause the harasser or bully to think again, it helps to create a culture which says "this behaviour is not welcome".
Well, thanks for the acknowledgement, but I seriously feel as if I've been tilting at windmills. Or maybe, thanks because I seriously feel as if I've been tilting at windmills.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by zakharov »

DysonSphere wrote:
triviawayne wrote:So...uh...which part of the title of this thread made you think the content would help you with your own study?
Threads can bleed into each other, and keeping tabs on the happenings of forums you frequent can be helpful toward using them as tools. I was sorry to see "the debate that ruined gaming/MTG/sci fi/etc." come to trivia.
Yes, truly it's the "debate" that "ruined" these things and not a bunch of assholes harassing and threatening women. It's not their fault, it's the people who call them on their reprehensible behavior. Please get a clue.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by TheSunWillComeOut »

Winchell Factor wrote:
CailinGaoilge wrote: But do you 'object' in your head, or do you object by challenging it when you see it?

Take a look at the Jeopardy! Facebook page. You'll see Vaughn (and other former J! contestants) calling out people who harass, bully or post nasty personal remarks about current contestants. That is the kind of "objecting" to harassment which does get results: even if it doesn't cause the harasser or bully to think again, it helps to create a culture which says "this behaviour is not welcome".
Well, thanks for the acknowledgement, but I seriously feel as if I've been tilting at windmills. Or maybe, thanks because I seriously feel as if I've been tilting at windmills.
Still a place for knights and gender-egalitarian chivalry in this world. Trust.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

zakharov wrote:
DysonSphere wrote:
triviawayne wrote:So...uh...which part of the title of this thread made you think the content would help you with your own study?
Threads can bleed into each other, and keeping tabs on the happenings of forums you frequent can be helpful toward using them as tools. I was sorry to see "the debate that ruined gaming/MTG/sci fi/etc." come to trivia.
Yes, truly it's the "debate" that "ruined" these things and not a bunch of assholes harassing and threatening women. It's not their fault, it's the people who call them on their reprehensible behavior. Please get a clue.
By all means, explain how we can stop anonymous internet commenters being mean to people. Like what can I do, on a practical level right now, to stop even one mean comment from being posted. Be specific, and if it has even the remotest chance of stopping one harassing post, I'll do it.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

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DysonSphere wrote: I was sorry to see "the debate that ruined gaming/MTG/sci fi/etc." come to trivia.
Gosh, I'm so sorry that my desire to be part of a safe, welcoming community that values my contributions despite (or -- gasp -- even because of) my ovaries, and insisting that others uphold a standard of decency in their public discourse in that community has "ruined" your various hobbies. I'm also sorry that harassment of women is apparently a topic for debate. Anywhere.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Dr. J »

DysonSphere wrote:By all means, explain how we can stop anonymous internet commenters being mean to people. Like what can I do, on a practical level right now, to stop even one mean comment from being posted. Be specific, and if it has even the remotest chance of stopping one harassing post, I'll do it.
You can't STOP them from being posted (unless you're a mod), but you can react to them. Lurkers are present everywhere, especially on a forum like this. If harassing or sexist (or anything-ist) comments go unchallenged, the atmosphere becomes one where those comments are seen as normative, hence they will persist. Lurkers who were hoping to find a welcoming place learn quickly that they're not welcome, and will stay silenced. If you actually speak out, you will be MUCH more likely to silence a future harassing post. Don't believe me? I can refer you to recent comments that Zach Horan made that indicate that he's less likely to engage in harassing behaviors than he was before he received a smackdown from J-Board and elsewhere.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

TheSunWillComeOut wrote:There are many studies that have shown that harassers and abusers use the casual acceptance/apathy of people in their circle as proof that what they are doing is socially condoned.
Britain has been prosecuting people for egregious trolling of public figures, up to and including threats of violence. When asked why they did it, they all give the same answer: they were bored and enjoyed the attention. There are still trolls in Britain.

My honest take is it's a problem that will be solved gradually and through technology, not through mass social action (again, trolls don't care). I'm not denying the problem, but admitting where we are powerless is one step towards addressing it.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

Dr. J wrote:
DysonSphere wrote: I was sorry to see "the debate that ruined gaming/MTG/sci fi/etc." come to trivia.
Gosh, I'm so sorry that my desire to be part of a safe, welcoming community that values my contributions despite (or -- gasp -- even because of) my ovaries, and insisting that others uphold a standard of decency in their public discourse in that community has "ruined" your various hobbies. I'm also sorry that harassment of women is apparently a topic for debate. Anywhere.
I agree with everything you said but nonetheless this doesn't answer my question of what any of us can do on a practical level about anonymous commenters elsewhere on the internet.
Dr. J wrote:If you actually speak out, you will be MUCH more likely to silence a future harassing post.
Or it gives them the attention they sought, and they just comment elsewhere.
Last edited by DysonSphere on Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Dr. J »

Look, I teach American women's history, and I can tell you that immense cultural changes have taken place in this country around issues of gender. We're in a time of immense change right now, IMO. None of those changes would have occurred if there hadn't been people -- both women AND men, usually -- who challenged "acceptable" behavior and attitudes in multiple ways, in multiple places. How long did it take to teach Americans that the n-word is a hateful slur? Not that long, in the scope of things. We can teach people that harassment is wrong, and even if trolls remain (as folks who say the n-word remain), they will be the despised minority. Clearly the kind of online harassment we women (in particular) receive is still seen as the norm on the internet, and THAT needs to change. You can help, and that fact that you're a man means that your challenge will carry more weight than mine. (Sad, but true.) So be an ally, for Alex's sake!

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by zakharov »

DysonSphere wrote:
Dr. J wrote:
DysonSphere wrote: I was sorry to see "the debate that ruined gaming/MTG/sci fi/etc." come to trivia.
Gosh, I'm so sorry that my desire to be part of a safe, welcoming community that values my contributions despite (or -- gasp -- even because of) my ovaries, and insisting that others uphold a standard of decency in their public discourse in that community has "ruined" your various hobbies. I'm also sorry that harassment of women is apparently a topic for debate. Anywhere.
I agree with everything you said but nonetheless this doesn't answer my question of what any of us can do on a practical level about anonymous commenters elsewhere on the internet.
Call it out where you see it. If you know anyone that behaves this way, let them know you find it unacceptable. Create an environment that doesn't welcome harassment. Don't associate with people who make excuses like "gosh they just shouldn't be on TV/on social media/outside/wearing a short skirt if they didn't expect that kind of attention." And for god's sake don't express those sentiments yourself.

The fact that we can't get rid of 100% of noxious behavior is not an excuse to not do what we can. We still have laws even though some people break them.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Winchell Factor »

DysonSphere wrote:
TheSunWillComeOut wrote:There are many studies that have shown that harassers and abusers use the casual acceptance/apathy of people in their circle as proof that what they are doing is socially condoned.
Britain has been prosecuting people for egregious trolling of public figures, up to and including threats of violence. When asked why they did it, they all give the same answer: they were bored and enjoyed the attention. There are still trolls in Britain.

My honest take is it's a problem that will be solved gradually and through technology, not through mass social action (again, trolls don't care). I'm not denying the problem, but admitting where we are powerless is one step towards addressing it.
I loathe this strawman: the problem cannot be solved entirely, so there is no point in doing anything at all to improve matters.

Condemning bad behavior matters. Even if it never stops hideous people from behaving hideously, it offers support to the people whom they mistreat.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by zakharov »

Winchell Factor wrote:
DysonSphere wrote:
TheSunWillComeOut wrote:There are many studies that have shown that harassers and abusers use the casual acceptance/apathy of people in their circle as proof that what they are doing is socially condoned.
Britain has been prosecuting people for egregious trolling of public figures, up to and including threats of violence. When asked why they did it, they all give the same answer: they were bored and enjoyed the attention. There are still trolls in Britain.

My honest take is it's a problem that will be solved gradually and through technology, not through mass social action (again, trolls don't care). I'm not denying the problem, but admitting where we are powerless is one step towards addressing it.
I loathe this strawman: the problem cannot be solved entirely, so there is no point in doing anything at all to improve matters.

Condemning bad behavior matters. Even if it never stops hideous people from behaving hideously, it offers support to the people whom they mistreat.
This cartoon was about gun control but the same insane thinking applies.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Batraxos »

I think the problem is even bigger than trolls online. They are hideous, but they are part of a culture that has been around in this country since the Mayflower arrived on the shores. The objectivizing of women. This is why there are trolls running rampant on social media of all forms. This is why girls have to be taught that it is okay to be good at STEM subjects. This is why rape victims on campuses across our country are afraid to speak out. This is also why women have a rough time in many careers just being left to do their jobs and why equal pay for equal work has not yet gained political traction. The way to change a culture? Talk about it. Often. With patience, because few people listen to shouting especially when they believe they are right. And teach our children that our culture shouldn't be this way, doesn't have to be this way.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. A small pebble can make big waves, imagine what a thousand pebbles can do.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

zakharov wrote:Call it out where you see it. If you know anyone that behaves this way, let them know you find it unacceptable. Create an environment that doesn't welcome harassment. Don't associate with people who make excuses like "gosh they just shouldn't be on TV/on social media/outside/wearing a short skirt if they didn't expect that kind of attention." And for god's sake don't express those sentiments yourself.

The fact that we can't get rid of 100% of noxious behavior is not an excuse to not do what we can. We still have laws even though some people break them.
I already do all of those things within my sphere of influence, as any decent person already does. But trolls don't act out for peer approval, and they tend to be down-and-out loner types. They want as wide a public audience as possible. Being no stranger to "chan" and Twitter culture, I'm extremely skeptical these sorts of discussions have the potential to stop even 1% of the problem. Companies like Facebook and Twitter have formed countless anti-harassment committees and have assigned huge amounts of resources toward curbing these problems. They have major financial incentives to stop it, and so far they have come up with essentially nothing.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by MitchO »

DysonSphere wrote:By all means, explain how we can stop anonymous internet commenters being mean to people. Like what can I do, on a practical level right now, to stop even one mean comment from being posted. Be specific, and if it has even the remotest chance of stopping one harassing post, I'll do it.
That's the easiest question you've asked on the thread.

Stopping anonymous internet assholes and perverts by unilaterally making the internet a place that doesn't tolerate assholes and perverts. One user at a time, one site at a time, one thread at a time. Frankly, don't do what you've done in this thread: try to give them any wiggle room that makes the responses towards them anything but the right answer. Don't try to claim that the responses are because of politics, or beyond your control, or (and I'm not saying you are doing this last part) are in any way, shape or form acceptable. Discord like this makes it just that slight bit more likely that someone thinks "Hey, I can be an asshole on this message board."

Stand up with all the people on this thread and pre-emptively say "This is not accepted." PERIOD. Change isn't instantaneous, it's done with momentum; what you can do on a practical level right now is help us push the boulder until it reaches the summit and tumbles downhill. Hopefully crushing all assholes.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by MitchO »

DysonSphere wrote:I'm extremely skeptical these sorts of discussions have the potential to stop even 1% of the problem.
Maybe not. But maybe so. Or maybe .1%. Or sadly, maybe .01%.

Why not make the world .01% better?

EDIT: Trust me, if you knew me personally, you'd know that I'm as big of a Negative Nancy as they come. I think the world sucks, people suck and all I ever see are the reasons something won't work. But I see no reason to piss on the parade here; it's obvious what's wrong and what's right and what you can try to do.
Last edited by MitchO on Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by TheSunWillComeOut »

Dr. J wrote:Look, I teach American women's history, and I can tell you that immense cultural changes have taken place in this country around issues of gender. We're in a time of immense change right now, IMO. None of those changes would have occurred if there hadn't been people -- both women AND men, usually -- who challenged "acceptable" behavior and attitudes in multiple ways, in multiple places. How long did it take to teach Americans that the n-word is a hateful slur? Not that long, in the scope of things. We can teach people that harassment is wrong, and even if trolls remain (as folks who say the n-word remain), they will be the despised minority. Clearly the kind of online harassment we women (in particular) receive is still seen as the norm on the internet, and THAT needs to change. You can help, and that fact that you're a man means that your challenge will carry more weight than mine. (Sad, but true.) So be an ally, for Alex's sake!
Yes, how quickly we forget the newness of the foundations on which our society stands. An older friend once told me that when he was a child in the 1950s/1960s, it was the norm to throw litter out the window of your car while traveling. Finish soda, crank down window, toss it. In the mid-'60s, Lady Bird Johnson started a campaign against highway littering. At first, people, including my friend's parents, scoffed - so we're just going to keep our smelly garbage in the CAR with us? That's disgusting! But in time, the stigma against it increased, and now, only boors throw trash out of their car like that. We tsk-tsk when we see it. And that's just over the best place to dispose your trash, not an issue as clear-cut as "Don't allow bullying on the internet."

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

MitchO wrote:
DysonSphere wrote:By all means, explain how we can stop anonymous internet commenters being mean to people. Like what can I do, on a practical level right now, to stop even one mean comment from being posted. Be specific, and if it has even the remotest chance of stopping one harassing post, I'll do it.
That's the easiest question you've asked on the thread.

Stopping anonymous internet assholes and perverts by unilaterally making the internet a place that doesn't tolerate assholes and perverts. One user at a time, one site at a time, one thread at a time. Frankly, don't do what you've done in this thread: try to give them any wiggle room that makes the responses towards them anything but the right answer. Don't try to claim that the responses are because of politics, or beyond your control, or (and I'm not saying you are doing this last part) are in any way, shape or form acceptable. Discord like this makes it just that slight bit more likely that someone thinks "Hey, I can be an asshole on this message board."

Stand up with all the people on this thread and pre-emptively say "This is not accepted." PERIOD. Change isn't instantaneous, it's done with momentum; what you can do on a practical level right now is help us push the boulder until it reaches the summit and tumbles downhill. Hopefully crushing all assholes.
Dude, have you ever, like, used the internet? What you are describing is literally impossible in current state of technology. Even the biggest tech companies with the most money cant stop people from creating burner accounts or otherwise masking their identities. Any 10 year old could do it, and they do. And anonymous commenters dont care about your shaming. In fact, they get their kicks from it.

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