Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

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MitchO
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by MitchO »

DysonSphere wrote:
MitchO wrote:
DysonSphere wrote:By all means, explain how we can stop anonymous internet commenters being mean to people. Like what can I do, on a practical level right now, to stop even one mean comment from being posted. Be specific, and if it has even the remotest chance of stopping one harassing post, I'll do it.
That's the easiest question you've asked on the thread.

Stopping anonymous internet assholes and perverts by unilaterally making the internet a place that doesn't tolerate assholes and perverts. One user at a time, one site at a time, one thread at a time. Frankly, don't do what you've done in this thread: try to give them any wiggle room that makes the responses towards them anything but the right answer. Don't try to claim that the responses are because of politics, or beyond your control, or (and I'm not saying you are doing this last part) are in any way, shape or form acceptable. Discord like this makes it just that slight bit more likely that someone thinks "Hey, I can be an asshole on this message board."

Stand up with all the people on this thread and pre-emptively say "This is not accepted." PERIOD. Change isn't instantaneous, it's done with momentum; what you can do on a practical level right now is help us push the boulder until it reaches the summit and tumbles downhill. Hopefully crushing all assholes.
Dude, have you ever, like, used the internet? What you are describing is literally impossible in current state of technology. Even the biggest tech companies with the most money cant stop people from creating burner accounts or otherwise masking their identities. Any 10 year old could do it, and they do.
Dude, I have made a 25 year career on the internet, with the current state of technology. I know what evil lurks in the hearts of men (and trolls), and I also know that change is always possible.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

MitchO wrote:
DysonSphere wrote:I'm extremely skeptical these sorts of discussions have the potential to stop even 1% of the problem.
Maybe not. But maybe so. Or maybe .1%. Or sadly, maybe .01%.

Why not make the world .01% better?

EDIT: Trust me, if you knew me personally, you'd know that I'm as big of a Negative Nancy as they come. I think the world sucks, people suck and all I ever see are the reasons something won't work. But I see no reason to piss on the parade here; it's obvious what's wrong and what's right and what you can try to do.
That's a reasonable point, and I don't take issue with the sentiment. There's just a lot of political baggage that comes with the discussion itself, and frankly a lot of it can make things worse while doing little or nothing to alleviate the actual problem. It's the baggage I'm objecting to, not any concrete steps against harassment itself. I gave some examples earlier of how quickly this can turn into an inquisition or red/blue flamewar, and I was sorry to see that happening here. One person early on suggested the leading Republican candidate was emblematic of the problem. I don't think the "us versus them" mentality is productive when applied so broadly (and unfairly IMO).

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Dr. J »

And, as Jesus himself said, "the poor will always be with you." He was probably talking about trolls, too. But most interpreters of that verse have not taken it to mean that "whelp, poverty will always be a problem, so let's just not work on it." The worst of the trolls will always exist, but there are just as many (maybe more) folks who are like those litterbugs that Jennifer mentioned: they just don't think they're hurting anyone and there isn't anything wrong with it. Those people can be educated. If you don't believe me, read this article where Lindy West has a fascinating conversation with a man who used to seriously troll her and doesn't anymore. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... lindy-west

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by MitchO »

DysonSphere wrote:One person early on suggested the leading Republican candidate was emblematic of the problem. I don't think the "us versus them" mentality is productive when applied so broadly (and unfairly IMO).
Unless you're the aforementioned leading Republican candidate (and A] I'm thinking it's a safe bet you're not and B] It is admittedly difficult to not make a comment about said candidate myself), then it's not a personal attack. It doesn't have anything to do with the agreement of the problem here. Suck it up, shake it off, and stand side by side with that differently partied person. Stop pulling the conversation in any direction other than one that says that harassment is 100% wrong.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by jeff6286 »

DysonSphere wrote:
MitchO wrote:
DysonSphere wrote:I'm extremely skeptical these sorts of discussions have the potential to stop even 1% of the problem.
Maybe not. But maybe so. Or maybe .1%. Or sadly, maybe .01%.

Why not make the world .01% better?

EDIT: Trust me, if you knew me personally, you'd know that I'm as big of a Negative Nancy as they come. I think the world sucks, people suck and all I ever see are the reasons something won't work. But I see no reason to piss on the parade here; it's obvious what's wrong and what's right and what you can try to do.
That's a reasonable point, and I don't take issue with the sentiment. There's just a lot of political baggage that comes with the discussion itself, and frankly a lot of it can make things worse while doing little or nothing to alleviate the actual problem. It's the baggage I'm objecting to, not any concrete steps against harassment itself. I gave some examples earlier of how quickly this can turn into an inquisition or red/blue flamewar, and I was sorry to see that happening here. One person early on suggested the leading Republican candidate was emblematic of the problem. I don't think the "us versus them" mentality is productive when applied so broadly (and unfairly IMO).
So here's the thing, you're right, someone said, roughly "these harassers are probably Trump supporters". I would agree with you, that is completely unnecessary and has no place in this discussion. Your response to that was, 2 pages and 50 or so posts later, "No politicizing Jeopardy, pls. Thx". You didn't quote the Trump post you were referring to, so no one had any context for what you were saying, making it sound like you were calling out the entire thread as being guilty of "politicizing". People responded negatively this, and later you point out that "To illustrate what I mean, two of the three women cited at the end of the article are very-far-left feminist commentators, and the third is a Democratic politician."

I don't at all understand how that illustrates what you mean. Women complaining about harassment who may be on the liberal end of the political spectrum means that there is a problem with this discussion that's being had here? You said don't politicize the discussion, but the very fact that people you apparently don't agree with politically have spoken out on the topic has caused you to appear to be at odds with virtually every single other person in this thread.

When you say, "there's a lot of political baggage that comes with this discussion", it makes me very frightened. I'm honestly not that into politics and don't spend a lot of time in places where politics are discussed, but the impression I get from your statements is that the "party line" for this topic would be that liberals object to the harassment of women while conservatives are.....okay with it? indifferent to it? support it? Like, what is the other side of this fence that any rational human could wish to take?

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by dhkendall »

OntarioQuizzer wrote: It's not about politics. It's about humanity.
QFT.
TheSunWillComeOut wrote:
DysonSphere wrote: A last sentiment I will offer - unsolicited though it may be - is I don't think this forum is in need of a McCarthy-like purge of "sexists" and "apologists." Millions of people watch Jeopardy, and among those millions, there are trolls and harassers. Those people are the problem; the people of this forum are not.
You don't realize the irony of your own words. As of several months ago, it WAS in fact in need of a purge. The women of this forum took action; the offending party was finally removed. If we had followed your logic, the poster in question would have remained here, continuing to harass people, because "there's nothing that can be done."

THAT is why I am looking over my glasses at you in annoyance. We have taken action where action has been needed in the past, and good things have been accomplished because of it.
Twice. Don't forget that. Each harassed in a different way and each needs to be remembered for the sake of this thread.
DysonSphere wrote:I was sorry to see "the debate that ruined gaming/MTG/sci fi/etc." come to trivia.
The choice of the bolder word is why we don't think you're getting the issue. If you're thinking of this as a debate that is "ruining" [hobby X] then that is indeed part of the problem.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

jeff6286 wrote:When you say, "there's a lot of political baggage that comes with this discussion", it makes me very frightened. I'm honestly not that into politics and don't spend a lot of time in places where politics are discussed, but the impression I get from your statements is that the "party line" for this topic would be that liberals object to the harassment of women while conservatives are.....okay with it? indifferent to it? support it? Like, what is the other side of this fence that any rational human could wish to take?
It's more that ideology determines how issues are framed, and framing can affect prescription. "Pro-choice" and "pro-life" are both false framings in that the reality is everyone is both of these things. So nobody except the trolls themselves are "pro-harassment," but people may paint each other that way for leverage.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by worldwidewebster »

Let me get this straight, DysonSphere...you think women should just suck it up and deal with incessant harassment because, oh well, that's just how the internet is, but for your sake you want everyone here to stop talking about it because it makes you uncomfortable? What makes your discomfort so much more important, exactly?

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by dhkendall »

DysonSphere wrote:
MitchO wrote:
DysonSphere wrote:By all means, explain how we can stop anonymous internet commenters being mean to people. Like what can I do, on a practical level right now, to stop even one mean comment from being posted. Be specific, and if it has even the remotest chance of stopping one harassing post, I'll do it.
That's the easiest question you've asked on the thread.

Stopping anonymous internet assholes and perverts by unilaterally making the internet a place that doesn't tolerate assholes and perverts. One user at a time, one site at a time, one thread at a time. Frankly, don't do what you've done in this thread: try to give them any wiggle room that makes the responses towards them anything but the right answer. Don't try to claim that the responses are because of politics, or beyond your control, or (and I'm not saying you are doing this last part) are in any way, shape or form acceptable. Discord like this makes it just that slight bit more likely that someone thinks "Hey, I can be an asshole on this message board."

Stand up with all the people on this thread and pre-emptively say "This is not accepted." PERIOD. Change isn't instantaneous, it's done with momentum; what you can do on a practical level right now is help us push the boulder until it reaches the summit and tumbles downhill. Hopefully crushing all assholes.
Dude, have you ever, like, used the internet? What you are describing is literally impossible in current state of technology. Even the biggest tech companies with the most money cant stop people from creating burner accounts or otherwise masking their identities. Any 10 year old could do it, and they do. And anonymous commenters dont care about your shaming. In fact, they get their kicks from it.
I made a difference to that one
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Winchell Factor »

DysonSphere wrote:
jeff6286 wrote:When you say, "there's a lot of political baggage that comes with this discussion", it makes me very frightened. I'm honestly not that into politics and don't spend a lot of time in places where politics are discussed, but the impression I get from your statements is that the "party line" for this topic would be that liberals object to the harassment of women while conservatives are.....okay with it? indifferent to it? support it? Like, what is the other side of this fence that any rational human could wish to take?
It's more that ideology determines how issues are framed, and framing can affect prescription. "Pro-choice" and "pro-life" are both false framings in that the reality is everyone is both of these things. So nobody except the trolls themselves are "pro-harassment," but people may paint each other that way for leverage.
Which way of "framing" results in people thinking it's okay to harass women?

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by opusthepenguin »

DysonSphere wrote:Dude, have you ever, like, used the internet? What you are describing is literally impossible in current state of technology. Even the biggest tech companies with the most money cant stop people from creating burner accounts or otherwise masking their identities. Any 10 year old could do it, and they do. And anonymous commenters dont care about your shaming. In fact, they get their kicks from it.
Back in the '50s racism was so entrenched that there was absolutely no way to get rid of it. There was no point in fighting it. You weren't going to make any headway. Now fast forward to 2016 and guess what? There's still a lot of racism out there. So I guess you're right. Geez. We wasted 60 years on an exercise in futility. I feel so stupid.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Lampy »

This is, like, "I was gone for the afternoon and now I'm rereading" meta-stuff, but it seems to me that even if DS's motivation wasn't straight trolling, he has successfully made this thread about convincing him of stuff or answering his arguments that are of dubious connection to the issue that started this thread.

Stop wasting people's time.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Lampy »

Dr. J wrote:And, as Jesus himself said, "the poor will always be with you." He was probably talking about trolls, too. But most interpreters of that verse have not taken it to mean that "whelp, poverty will always be a problem, so let's just not work on it." The worst of the trolls will always exist, but there are just as many (maybe more) folks who are like those litterbugs that Jennifer mentioned: they just don't think they're hurting anyone and there isn't anything wrong with it. Those people can be educated. If you don't believe me, read this article where Lindy West has a fascinating conversation with a man who used to seriously troll her and doesn't anymore. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... lindy-west
+++++ for this article.

++++++ for the sentiment: utter eradication of a thing is an ideal but not a goal that can be worked toward. But that's not the reward for these conversations. Of late I see people dismayed by racist cops or rape culture or pay inequity and their reaction is "I guess it's just as bad as it ever was." Hell no it's not. In 2014 we passed the 100-women-in-Congress threshold for the first time ever. In 1980 there were 18; in 1990 there were 31. In my neck of the woods, a ton of people have put their Stars and Bars away forever. Gay marriage was well on the way to legalization in more and more states before Obergefell. Et cetera, et cetera. Every time the lid gets blown off one of these things we come to a social reckoning, and we all fight about it, and usually we end up in a fairer place than we were in before. Doesn't mean everyone changes. Does mean some people change. Dan Quayle had some things to say about rap; Marco Rubio has extremely different things to say about rap. There are a ton of these examples and saying you can't change the worst doesn't mean you can't change things.

NONE of the change on most of these issues has been completely sufficient. But it's been there. That's what we DO.

I'm starting to sound all Anthony Kennedy or something after a couple of beers. Forgive me. But please cool it with the stagnation stuff.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Zyzzyva »

DysonSphere wrote:There's just a lot of political baggage that comes with the discussion itself, and frankly a lot of it can make things worse while doing little or nothing to alleviate the actual problem. It's the baggage I'm objecting to, not any concrete steps against harassment itself.
Honestly, this is precisely why concrete change happens so slowly.

There are plenty of concrete things you could do, and other people have mentioned some of them. You could educate yourself on issues of harassment and bullying (online or otherwise), educate others, support anti-harassment training in schools and workplaces, vote for candidates who advocate for anti-bullying measures, contribute time, money, and effort to anti-harassment organizations, crisis hotlines, and community organizations that are actively supportive of targeted groups of people, make a concerted effort to ensure that harassment doesn't happen in organizations with which you're involved and challenge leaders to do better when they're failing. You might have even already done some of these.

But the one thing you could do right now is abandon the notion that people calling attention to this matter and discussing ought not do so because heated disagreement is uncomfortable. This is not an abstract thought experiment; this is a real thing that happens to people here and elsewhere.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by reddpen »

At the risk of further politicizing this thread, I wonder if something DysonSphere and TheSunWillComeOut might have in common is an affinity for the band Rush, though I'd guess (based on almost no knowledge) that only one shares the band's well-known libertarian bent.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by TheSunWillComeOut »

reddpen wrote:At the risk of further politicizing this thread, I wonder if something DysonSphere and TheSunWillComeOut might have in common is an affinity for the band Rush, though I'd guess (based on almost no knowledge) that only one shares the band's well-known libertarian bent.
http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/16/neil- ... en-and-bro

"Peart outgrew his Ayn Rand phase years ago, and now describes himself as a "bleeding-heart libertarian," citing his trips to Africa as transformative. He claims to stand by the message of "The Trees," but other than that, his bleeding-heart side seems dominant. Peart just became a U.S. citizen, and he is unlikely to vote for Rand Paul, or any Republican. Peart says that it's "very obvious" that Paul "hates women and brown people" — and Rush sent a cease-and-desist order to get Paul to stop quoting "The Trees" in his speeches."

<3

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

Zyzzyva wrote:You could educate yourself on issues of harassment and bullying (online or otherwise)
This is all the gaming and sci fi communities have talked about for ~2 years at this point (GamerGate and Sad Puppies controversies respectively), so I'm well versed in the arguments. Its become all negativity all the time, nothing has improved for anyone, lots of nastiness and fingerpointing of the sort seen in this thread, careers ruined - many unfairly, and the only thing everyone agrees on is that few are having fun anymore.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Dr. J »

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Lampy »

DysonSphere wrote:
Zyzzyva wrote:You could educate yourself on issues of harassment and bullying (online or otherwise)
This is all the gaming and sci fi communities have talked about for ~2 years at this point (GamerGate and Sad Puppies controversies respectively), so I'm well versed in the arguments. Its become all negativity all the time, nothing has improved for anyone, lots of nastiness and fingerpointing of the sort seen in this thread, careers ruined - many unfairly, and the only thing everyone agrees on is that few are having fun anymore.
Yes it sure does suck how no good games or sci fi have come out in the past two years and nobody has talked about those things.

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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by alietr »

DysonSphere wrote:This is all the gaming and sci fi communities have talked about for ~2 years at this point (GamerGate and Sad Puppies controversies respectively), so I'm well versed in the arguments. Its become all negativity all the time, nothing has improved for anyone, lots of nastiness and fingerpointing of the sort seen in this thread, careers ruined - many unfairly, and the only thing everyone agrees on is that few are having fun anymore.
It won't get to that point here. I won't let it. The analogy is not apt. Nor, I hope, will it ever be. The upshot is, this is a single thread discussing something of vital import to the Jeopardy community. Jeopardy is a game show; it's supposed to be fun. What's happening out there is taking away a lot of fun for a select group of people and that's just not fair to anyone.

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