The camps are not pro or anti-harassment. The camps are harassment tolerant, and harassment intolerant.DysonSphere wrote:It's more that ideology determines how issues are framed, and framing can affect prescription. "Pro-choice" and "pro-life" are both false framings in that the reality is everyone is both of these things. So nobody except the trolls themselves are "pro-harassment," but people may paint each other that way for leverage.jeff6286 wrote:When you say, "there's a lot of political baggage that comes with this discussion", it makes me very frightened. I'm honestly not that into politics and don't spend a lot of time in places where politics are discussed, but the impression I get from your statements is that the "party line" for this topic would be that liberals object to the harassment of women while conservatives are.....okay with it? indifferent to it? support it? Like, what is the other side of this fence that any rational human could wish to take?
Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
- jeff6286
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
I still don't get this, DysonSphere. No one has painted this as a political argument, except for you! This is, from what I gather, a conservative telling us that his side generally tolerates harassment, while the other side wants to fight it. That seems like the kind of accusation that would get lobbed at the other side in a nasty political ad, not something you yourself point out! It's like what I said when Tom Brady got booed at the Super Bowl, even in this contentious election year, there are things that all Americans can agree on. Don't harass people in person or on the internet, whether they've been on a game show or not! Can we not all find common ground on this???brick wrote:The camps are not pro or anti-harassment. The camps are harassment tolerant, and harassment intolerant.DysonSphere wrote:It's more that ideology determines how issues are framed, and framing can affect prescription. "Pro-choice" and "pro-life" are both false framings in that the reality is everyone is both of these things. So nobody except the trolls themselves are "pro-harassment," but people may paint each other that way for leverage.jeff6286 wrote:When you say, "there's a lot of political baggage that comes with this discussion", it makes me very frightened. I'm honestly not that into politics and don't spend a lot of time in places where politics are discussed, but the impression I get from your statements is that the "party line" for this topic would be that liberals object to the harassment of women while conservatives are.....okay with it? indifferent to it? support it? Like, what is the other side of this fence that any rational human could wish to take?
- Winchell Factor
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
Are you seriously suggesting that addressing pervasive and serious injustice is a bad idea because it will diminish your fun?DysonSphere wrote:Its become all negativity all the time, nothing has improved for anyone, lots of nastiness and fingerpointing of the sort seen in this thread, careers ruined - many unfairly, and the only thing everyone agrees on is that few are having fun anymore.
That's what I'm getting from this statement. Please tell me I'm wrong. Because I'd really like to think that finger-pointing and arguing are a price worth paying in order to let women feel safe and secure in our community.
Last edited by Winchell Factor on Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- naurae29
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
We're basically dealing with two problems:
First, there's unintentional injury. Here's we're talking about people who thoughtlessly post boneheaded, mean-spirited comments (be they sexist, objectifying, racist, ablist, homophobic, or otherwise) on social media. They treat contestants on Jeopardy! like characters on TV rather than real people, and treat Twitter/Reddit/Facebook like a small room full of their closest buddies rather a public forum. E.g. Someone who describes sex acts he'd like to perform on a contestant probably doesn't expect that she's reading his comments. He's not really thinking about her qua human being at all. He's just participating in locker room talk in a forum that feels safe for that talk. Our goal should be to make it clear that the subject of their comments is a real person and that such talk is unacceptable in a public forum.
Often, calling these people out by retweeting their stupid comments or responding with reasonably polite outrage does shut them up. Sometimes it makes them realize that they're talking about real people, and sometimes they're just shocked at getting criticized and become uncomfortable. I prefer if we achieve the former - if we convince people to be more thoughtful. But, frankly, if they just shut up because they don't like our reaction, that's a win.
For example: Last week, someone said something ridiculously mean about a contestant. A lot of us called her out. She eventually said "I thought the Jeopardy! community was supposed to be welcoming." We made it clear: we don't welcome mean.
Second, we have intentional, targetted harassment. Here, we're talking about online commenters who target particular people. They want their victims to feel bad. They feed off attention. They enjoy the backlash. Nothing short of banning or criminal action will thoroughly address these threats to our community. But the more we address and shut down the thoughtless, unintentional harassment, the faster we can realize who the serious threats are, create a forum which is clearly not safe for trolls, and establish a community in which the targets of either type of harassment realize they have our support.
First, there's unintentional injury. Here's we're talking about people who thoughtlessly post boneheaded, mean-spirited comments (be they sexist, objectifying, racist, ablist, homophobic, or otherwise) on social media. They treat contestants on Jeopardy! like characters on TV rather than real people, and treat Twitter/Reddit/Facebook like a small room full of their closest buddies rather a public forum. E.g. Someone who describes sex acts he'd like to perform on a contestant probably doesn't expect that she's reading his comments. He's not really thinking about her qua human being at all. He's just participating in locker room talk in a forum that feels safe for that talk. Our goal should be to make it clear that the subject of their comments is a real person and that such talk is unacceptable in a public forum.
Often, calling these people out by retweeting their stupid comments or responding with reasonably polite outrage does shut them up. Sometimes it makes them realize that they're talking about real people, and sometimes they're just shocked at getting criticized and become uncomfortable. I prefer if we achieve the former - if we convince people to be more thoughtful. But, frankly, if they just shut up because they don't like our reaction, that's a win.
For example: Last week, someone said something ridiculously mean about a contestant. A lot of us called her out. She eventually said "I thought the Jeopardy! community was supposed to be welcoming." We made it clear: we don't welcome mean.
Second, we have intentional, targetted harassment. Here, we're talking about online commenters who target particular people. They want their victims to feel bad. They feed off attention. They enjoy the backlash. Nothing short of banning or criminal action will thoroughly address these threats to our community. But the more we address and shut down the thoughtless, unintentional harassment, the faster we can realize who the serious threats are, create a forum which is clearly not safe for trolls, and establish a community in which the targets of either type of harassment realize they have our support.
- MDaunt
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
I think her post was intended ironically.Winchell Factor wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that addressing pervasive and serious injustice is a bad idea because it will diminish your fun?DysonSphere wrote:Zyzzyva wrote:Its become all negativity all the time, nothing has improved for anyone, lots of nastiness and fingerpointing of the sort seen in this thread, careers ruined - many unfairly, and the only thing everyone agrees on is that few are having fun anymore.
That's what I'm getting from this statement. Please tell me I'm wrong. Because I'd really like to think that finger-pointing and arguing are a price worth paying in order to let women feel safe and secure in our community.
- TheSunWillComeOut
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
We were having a civil and thoughtful discussion here on both sides before you burst in - which I still don't understand given that you are not an overly active member of this forum otherwise - and demanded that everyone silence themselves to appease you. You have spread more negativity than everyone else in this thread combined.DysonSphere wrote:This is all the gaming and sci fi communities have talked about for ~2 years at this point (GamerGate and Sad Puppies controversies respectively), so I'm well versed in the arguments. Its become all negativity all the time, nothing has improved for anyone, lots of nastiness and fingerpointing of the sort seen in this thread, careers ruined - many unfairly, and the only thing everyone agrees on is that few are having fun anymore.Zyzzyva wrote:You could educate yourself on issues of harassment and bullying (online or otherwise)
- TheSunWillComeOut
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
Clarification needed here: The tags were somehow messed up in that post, that's not Zyzzyva's comment but rather DysonSphere's. It's credited incorrectly.MDaunt wrote:I think her post was intended ironically.Winchell Factor wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that addressing pervasive and serious injustice is a bad idea because it will diminish your fun?DysonSphere wrote:Zyzzyva wrote:Its become all negativity all the time, nothing has improved for anyone, lots of nastiness and fingerpointing of the sort seen in this thread, careers ruined - many unfairly, and the only thing everyone agrees on is that few are having fun anymore.
That's what I'm getting from this statement. Please tell me I'm wrong. Because I'd really like to think that finger-pointing and arguing are a price worth paying in order to let women feel safe and secure in our community.
- Winchell Factor
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
How embarrassing! Jennifer's exactly right: I messed up the nesting of quotes in my prior post. The words I was quoting were DysonSphere's, not Zyyzzyva's.MDaunt wrote:I think her post was intended ironically.Winchell Factor wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that addressing pervasive and serious injustice is a bad idea because it will diminish your fun?DysonSphere wrote:Zyzzyva wrote:Its become all negativity all the time, nothing has improved for anyone, lots of nastiness and fingerpointing of the sort seen in this thread, careers ruined - many unfairly, and the only thing everyone agrees on is that few are having fun anymore.
That's what I'm getting from this statement. Please tell me I'm wrong. Because I'd really like to think that finger-pointing and arguing are a price worth paying in order to let women feel safe and secure in our community.
I've fixed that now in the prior post.
- Woppy T
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
It is "very obvious" that Peart is a jerk.TheSunWillComeOut wrote:http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/16/neil- ... en-and-broreddpen wrote:At the risk of further politicizing this thread, I wonder if something DysonSphere and TheSunWillComeOut might have in common is an affinity for the band Rush, though I'd guess (based on almost no knowledge) that only one shares the band's well-known libertarian bent.
"Peart outgrew his Ayn Rand phase years ago, and now describes himself as a "bleeding-heart libertarian," citing his trips to Africa as transformative. He claims to stand by the message of "The Trees," but other than that, his bleeding-heart side seems dominant. Peart just became a U.S. citizen, and he is unlikely to vote for Rand Paul, or any Republican. Peart says that it's "very obvious" that Paul "hates women and brown people" — and Rush sent a cease-and-desist order to get Paul to stop quoting "The Trees" in his speeches."
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
He has a blunt way of putting things, and our political views are certainly not identical, but I do respect that he speaks out when he perceives injustice toward groups other than his own.Woppy T wrote:It is "very obvious" that Peart is a jerk.TheSunWillComeOut wrote:http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/16/neil- ... en-and-broreddpen wrote:At the risk of further politicizing this thread, I wonder if something DysonSphere and TheSunWillComeOut might have in common is an affinity for the band Rush, though I'd guess (based on almost no knowledge) that only one shares the band's well-known libertarian bent.
"Peart outgrew his Ayn Rand phase years ago, and now describes himself as a "bleeding-heart libertarian," citing his trips to Africa as transformative. He claims to stand by the message of "The Trees," but other than that, his bleeding-heart side seems dominant. Peart just became a U.S. citizen, and he is unlikely to vote for Rand Paul, or any Republican. Peart says that it's "very obvious" that Paul "hates women and brown people" — and Rush sent a cease-and-desist order to get Paul to stop quoting "The Trees" in his speeches."
<3
And he has been extremely kind to me personally.
- patkav
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
I'm beginning to get a sense of why it's all the communities you're part of have talked about for years.DysonSphere wrote:This is all the gaming and sci fi communities have talked about for ~2 years at this point (GamerGate and Sad Puppies controversies respectively), so I'm well versed in the arguments. Its become all negativity all the time, nothing has improved for anyone, lots of nastiness and fingerpointing of the sort seen in this thread, careers ruined - many unfairly, and the only thing everyone agrees on is that few are having fun anymore.Zyzzyva wrote:You could educate yourself on issues of harassment and bullying (online or otherwise)
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
Ha, true.patkav wrote:I'm beginning to get a sense of why it's all the communities you're part of have talked about for years.DysonSphere wrote:This is all the gaming and sci fi communities have talked about for ~2 years at this point (GamerGate and Sad Puppies controversies respectively), so I'm well versed in the arguments. Its become all negativity all the time, nothing has improved for anyone, lots of nastiness and fingerpointing of the sort seen in this thread, careers ruined - many unfairly, and the only thing everyone agrees on is that few are having fun anymore.Zyzzyva wrote:You could educate yourself on issues of harassment and bullying (online or otherwise)
Also, as a (female) professional science fiction writer, I take serious issue with DS's notion that "nothing has improved" in the science fiction community as a result of women and POC speaking out. Unless you count the people who equate even the slightest reduction of privilege with "persecution," that is.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
Came here to post something similar to this, but I'm glad it was already articulated better than I would have.naurae29 wrote:We're basically dealing with two problems:
First, there's unintentional injury. Here's we're talking about people who thoughtlessly post boneheaded, mean-spirited comments (be they sexist, objectifying, racist, ablist, homophobic, or otherwise) on social media. They treat contestants on Jeopardy! like characters on TV rather than real people, and treat Twitter/Reddit/Facebook like a small room full of their closest buddies rather a public forum. E.g. Someone who describes sex acts he'd like to perform on a contestant probably doesn't expect that she's reading his comments. He's not really thinking about her qua human being at all. He's just participating in locker room talk in a forum that feels safe for that talk. Our goal should be to make it clear that the subject of their comments is a real person and that such talk is unacceptable in a public forum.
Often, calling these people out by retweeting their stupid comments or responding with reasonably polite outrage does shut them up. Sometimes it makes them realize that they're talking about real people, and sometimes they're just shocked at getting criticized and become uncomfortable. I prefer if we achieve the former - if we convince people to be more thoughtful. But, frankly, if they just shut up because they don't like our reaction, that's a win.
For example: Last week, someone said something ridiculously mean about a contestant. A lot of us called her out. She eventually said "I thought the Jeopardy! community was supposed to be welcoming." We made it clear: we don't welcome mean.
Second, we have intentional, targetted harassment. Here, we're talking about online commenters who target particular people. They want their victims to feel bad. They feed off attention. They enjoy the backlash. Nothing short of banning or criminal action will thoroughly address these threats to our community. But the more we address and shut down the thoughtless, unintentional harassment, the faster we can realize who the serious threats are, create a forum which is clearly not safe for trolls, and establish a community in which the targets of either type of harassment realize they have our support.
I don't think most of the people making insensitive comments are sociopaths. They're mostly people who don't have relevant social skills and haven't thought their speech through enough to understand the impact of it. Given sufficient perspective, they'd likely experience shame/embarrassment/empathy and not participate in certain kinds of behaviors. They're probably also under the assumption that the person being discussed (or someone that knows them) will never actually see what they're writing, or wouldn't be affected by it, which amplifies how unfettered the speech is. I'm not demonizing these kinds of offenders: I have been one. Most people here probably have been at some point, too. Steps to address negativity and toxicity are incredibly effective, especially when it's constructive and humane in its response, which the majority of the women talking about this absolutely have been.
Because of this, changing the culture of a community is an especially effective means of curtailing (even if not outright eliminating) many forms of hostility and harassment. I don't see how that's anything other than a good thing.
- DysonSphere
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
So if anyone is interested in whether these theories about fighting harassment through social shaming hold up in anonymous online settings, the following is an example worth considering:
http://bit.ly/1ThgbF3
In 2010, an IGN thread is created about a female Jeopardy contestant's appearance. The contestant's sister finds the thread early on, tells everyone of her sister's shy nature and embarrassment, and pleads with them to stop in the name of decency. The original posters find this hilarious, commenters flood in, and SIX YEARS later, the thread is still active and people are piling on lewd comments.
I'd like hearing how this sort of harassment can be prevented, given nobody crossed the line into illegality and general discussion forums like IGN or youtube have no incentive or will to remove such posts.
Heck, the thread's right there if anyone wants to try. But I dont think pouring out our support for the target will have the effect anyone here hopes it will. In fact, given the history, I'm certain it will lead to even more harassment.
http://bit.ly/1ThgbF3
In 2010, an IGN thread is created about a female Jeopardy contestant's appearance. The contestant's sister finds the thread early on, tells everyone of her sister's shy nature and embarrassment, and pleads with them to stop in the name of decency. The original posters find this hilarious, commenters flood in, and SIX YEARS later, the thread is still active and people are piling on lewd comments.
I'd like hearing how this sort of harassment can be prevented, given nobody crossed the line into illegality and general discussion forums like IGN or youtube have no incentive or will to remove such posts.
Heck, the thread's right there if anyone wants to try. But I dont think pouring out our support for the target will have the effect anyone here hopes it will. In fact, given the history, I'm certain it will lead to even more harassment.
Last edited by DysonSphere on Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- CailinGaoilge
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
So because you've been able to find ONE example where an appeal to common decency resulted in mockery and an escalation of the misogynistic, disrespectful and immature behaviour, no-one should ever try to speak out against harassment ever again?DysonSphere wrote:So if anyone is interested in whether these theories about fighting harassment through social shaming hold up in anonymous online settings, the following is an example worth considering:
http://bit.ly/1ThgbF3
In 2010, an IGN thread is created about a female Jeopardy contestant's appearance. The contestant's sister finds the thread early on, tells everyone of her sister's shy nature and embarrassment, and pleads with them to stop in the name of decency. The original posters find this hilarious, commenters flood in, and SIX YEARS later, the thread is still active and people are piling on lewd comments.
I'd like hearing how this sort of harassment can be prevented, given nobody crossed the line into illegality and general discussion forums like IGN or youtube have no incentive or will to remove such posts.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
- Zyzzyva
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
Agree. And I'll also add that groups like the trivia community don't exist in a vacuum. Small, positive steps within can and do contribute to broader changes, and vice versa.CFParrinello wrote:Came here to post something similar to this, but I'm glad it was already articulated better than I would have.
I don't think most of the people making insensitive comments are sociopaths. They're mostly people who don't have relevant social skills and haven't thought their speech through enough to understand the impact of it. Given sufficient perspective, they'd likely experience shame/embarrassment/empathy and not participate in certain kinds of behaviors. They're probably also under the assumption that the person being discussed (or someone that knows them) will never actually see what they're writing, or wouldn't be affected by it, which amplifies how unfettered the speech is. I'm not demonizing these kinds of offenders: I have been one. Most people here probably have been at some point, too. Steps to address negativity and toxicity are incredibly effective, especially when it's constructive and humane in its response, which the majority of the women talking about this absolutely have been.
Because of this, changing the culture of a community is an especially effective means of curtailing (even if not outright eliminating) many forms of hostility and harassment. I don't see how that's anything other than a good thing.
- DysonSphere
- Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
There are as many examples you have time for. Anita Sarkeesian, Zoe Quinn, and Brianna Wu are three notable cases that followed essentially the same pattern.CailinGaoilge wrote:So because you've been able to find ONE example where an appeal to common decency resulted in mockery and an escalation of the misogynistic, disrespectful and immature behaviour, no-one should ever try to speak out against harassment ever again?
I agree with many here that leveraging social pressure can be an effective strategy where commenters can be identified. But anonymous online settings are fundamentally different in kind and well intentioned efforts can have the opposite effect by drawing more unwanted attention.
- MDaunt
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
That's called the Streisand Effect and it's why site owners have to take responsibility and not leave it to individuals. It's not an excuse to do nothing.DysonSphere wrote:So if anyone is interested in whether these theories about fighting harassment through social shaming hold up in anonymous online settings, the following is an example worth considering:
http://bit.ly/1ThgbF3
In 2010, an IGN thread is created about a female Jeopardy contestant's appearance. The contestant's sister finds the thread early on, tells everyone of her sister's shy nature and embarrassment, and pleads with them to stop in the name of decency. The original posters find this hilarious, commenters flood in, and SIX YEARS later, the thread is still active and people are piling on lewd comments.
I'd like hearing how this sort of harassment can be prevented, given nobody crossed the line into illegality and general discussion forums like IGN or youtube have no incentive or will to remove such posts.
Heck, the thread's right there if anyone wants to try. But I dont think pouring out our support for the target will have the effect anyone here hopes it will.
Edit: And here I am feeding the troll...
- alietr
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
Wow. What assholes.DysonSphere wrote:So if anyone is interested in whether these theories about fighting harassment through social shaming hold up in anonymous online settings, the following is an example worth considering:
http://bit.ly/1ThgbF3
- jeff6286
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"
By the way, when you said gaming has been completely ruined for you over the past two years, IT'S BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE THIS.DysonSphere wrote:
In 2010, an IGN thread is created about a female Jeopardy contestant's appearance. The contestant's sister finds the thread early on, tells everyone of her sister's shy nature and embarrassment, and pleads with them to stop in the name of decency. The original posters find this hilarious, commenters flood in, and SIX YEARS later, the thread is still active and people are piling on lewd comments.