Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

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DysonSphere
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

vicki wrote:
I was more questioning whether it should be discussed here and in this manner. I was seeing a lot of the same ideologically-charged rhetoric and finger-pointing that has torn apart other hobbyist communities of late, and I was sorry to see it. That's all.
Where should it be discussed? Isn't a forum for folks who've been on, or want to be on, Jeopardy! the ideal place to discuss an issue that affects many of the people who are talented enough (and lucky enough) to be selected as contestants? Or, does the fact that the only contestants that this affects are female somehow make this not important? I'm genuinely curious -- how should I interpret a desire for this conversation to not exist as anything other than sexism?
Will discuss in DM if anyone wants.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by AndyTheQuizzer »

DysonSphere wrote:
vicki wrote:
I was more questioning whether it should be discussed here and in this manner. I was seeing a lot of the same ideologically-charged rhetoric and finger-pointing that has torn apart other hobbyist communities of late, and I was sorry to see it. That's all.
Where should it be discussed? Isn't a forum for folks who've been on, or want to be on, Jeopardy! the ideal place to discuss an issue that affects many of the people who are talented enough (and lucky enough) to be selected as contestants? Or, does the fact that the only contestants that this affects are female somehow make this not important? I'm genuinely curious -- how should I interpret a desire for this conversation to not exist as anything other than sexism?
Will discuss in DM if anyone wants.
The "wanting to discuss on my terms and my terms only" aside, it is my opinion here that the only tearing apart is the dealing with the tumor of people who are making the rest of the group rather uncomfortable.

Things have improved but the job is nowhere near done. The 1998 "don't feed the trolls" attitude doesn't work in 2016. And yes, you are going to see this problem discussed openly more and more.

It's not about politics. It's about humanity.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by CailinGaoilge »

DysonSphere wrote:
patkav wrote:
DysonSphere wrote: I recognize it is a troubling issue. I have not insisted it is not worth discussing in any forum or format.
But how on earth do you propose it be discussed without, as you see it, "politicizing it," when you seem to have decided the whole article can be dismissed because you don't care for some of the people who have spoken on the issue?

(edited to insert quote to avoid confusion)
I was more questioning whether it should be discussed here and in this manner. I was seeing a lot of the same ideologically-charged rhetoric and finger-pointing that has torn apart other hobbyist communities of late, and I was sorry to see it. That's all.

Nobody here is "blaming victims." Calling the trolls "Donald Trump" supporters? Come on, folks.
Telling women that they should know better than to go on social media is the same as saying: if you see these comments, it's your fault.

EXACTLY the same as saying if women don't want to be sexually assaulted, they shouldn't dress "provocatively" or go out alone at night.

And, yes, that is victim-blaming.

Please explain: how exactly is arguing that internet platforms should make clear that harassment and bullying is against site rules, and deal with harassers when they're reported, politicizing anything?
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

OntarioQuizzer wrote:The "wanting to discuss on my terms and my terms only" aside
Taking someone at their word about wanting a conversation, it was more an invitation to do so without being subject to bomb throwing by a virtue-signaling mob. You know, the kind of "discourse" that involves calling people "tumors" over difference of opinion.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by AndyTheQuizzer »

DysonSphere wrote:
OntarioQuizzer wrote:The "wanting to discuss on my terms and my terms only" aside
Taking someone at their word about wanting a conversation, it was more an invitation to do so without being subject to bomb throwing by a virtue-signaling mob. You know, the kind of "discourse" that involves calling people "tumors" over difference of opinion.
I don't believe this is a mere "difference of opinion" and calling it such diminishes what female contestants have to go through.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

OntarioQuizzer wrote: I don't believe this is a mere "difference of opinion" and calling it such diminishes what female contestants have to go through.
So reasonable minds are in agreement and everyone else is literally cancer. Fine. So what is there to talk about?
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by TheSunWillComeOut »

DysonSphere wrote:
OntarioQuizzer wrote:The "wanting to discuss on my terms and my terms only" aside
Taking someone at their word about wanting a conversation, it was more an invitation to do so without being subject to bomb throwing by a virtue-signaling mob. You know, the kind of "discourse" that involves calling people "tumors" over difference of opinion.
Do you think we're all arguing this as a rhetorical exercise, that this is a thought experiment that's become tedious? Guess what, some of us have to live it. Your opinion on this matter is WORTHLESS. I say this logically, not emotionally. The fact that you don't like this discussion is your problem and your problem alone. Deal with it.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Zyzzyva »

DysonSphere wrote:Will discuss in DM if anyone wants.
Thanks for the invite, but no. Feel welcome to participate or not or lurk as you choose, but for my part, this discussion really ought to take place out of the shadows.

Harassment is a problem. A lot of us have experienced it as a result of going on the show, and it's just not enough to say that the solution is that people, on account of belonging to a particular class, simply need to choose either to grin and bear it or not compete. Likewise, a lot of us have experienced it in our daily lives, and it's just not enough to say that people ought to grin and bear it or avoid certain pursuits.

Maybe it's true that what any of us can do to fix a problem is limited, but that's not the same as doing nothing. Little steps add up, and they're meaningful. And it's certainly a far cry from saying that other people shouldn't even discuss it here, given that it's a problem (and that it's absolutely relevant to the show).

Jennifer is right. Discussing this here or in another hobbyist community might be uncomfortable, but it's necessary, because the alternative seems to be telling people to either shut up and deal with the nonsense or stay the hell away. I feel very fortunate that I had the opportunity to be a contestant and that I get to be part of the trivia community, and folks shouldn't have to forfeit those experiences because of the harassment.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by TheSunWillComeOut »

Zyzzyva wrote: Maybe it's true that what any of us can do to fix a problem is limited, but that's not the same as doing nothing. Little steps add up, and they're meaningful. And it's certainly a far cry from saying that other people shouldn't even discuss it here, given that it's a problem (and that it's absolutely relevant to the show).
THIS. Since this article was published, we've seen many men from within the trivia community take note of it and step up to stand with the women who are being harassed. That's an action that shows the trolls that this isn't about "women not knowing how to take a compliment," but rather, aggressive and antisocial behavior that is repellent to members of this community regardless of gender. Eliminating that behavior from our spaces will solve the problem of unrest within forums, NOT criticizing those who point to the fact that there's a problem.

I for one am glad that so many recognize it for the problem it is, and are taking concrete, visible actions to show that adherence to basic norms of social interaction is a mandatory requirement for participation.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

Zyzzyva wrote:
DysonSphere wrote:Will discuss in DM if anyone wants.
Thanks for the invite, but no. Feel welcome to participate or not or lurk as you choose, but for my part, this discussion really ought to take place out of the shadows.
Thank you for being civil, which is more than I can say for some here. Whatever the solution to trolling, I doubt it's more rudeness, even of a different kind and magnitude.

Some of what you've said I agree with, a bit I disagree with, and some I'm undecided on. I suspect we agree more than not, but since I've been all-caps-told my opinion is WORTHLESS and none here have seen fit to challenge that (at least publicly), there's no need for me to participate further.

A last sentiment I will offer - unsolicited though it may be - is I don't think this forum is in need of a McCarthy-like purge of "sexists" and "apologists." Millions of people watch Jeopardy, and among those millions, there are trolls and harassers. Those people are the problem; the people of this forum are not. I'm not answering to any such charges, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to either.
Last edited by DysonSphere on Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Zyzzyva »

To be clear, I'm not choosing my tone out of deference to anyone. I run in circles with a lot of people who have suffered quite a bit more than I have due to harassment, and after a while, the anger that others are expressing becomes a bit numbing.

So I back Jennifer 100 percent but will say it in my own way: This is a discussion in which the stakes are much higher for some of us than others. For one person, it's the difference between being right or wrong, and for another, it's potentially an issue of physical safety.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by TheSunWillComeOut »

DysonSphere wrote: A last sentiment I will offer - unsolicited though it may be - is I don't think this forum is in need of a McCarthy-like purge of "sexists" and "apologists." Millions of people watch Jeopardy, and among those millions, there are trolls and harassers. Those people are the problem; the people of this forum are not.
You don't realize the irony of your own words. As of several months ago, it WAS in fact in need of a purge. The women of this forum took action; the offending party was finally removed. If we had followed your logic, the poster in question would have remained here, continuing to harass people, because "there's nothing that can be done."

THAT is why I am looking over my glasses at you in annoyance. We have taken action where action has been needed in the past, and good things have been accomplished because of it.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

TheSunWillComeOut wrote:
DysonSphere wrote: A last sentiment I will offer - unsolicited though it may be - is I don't think this forum is in need of a McCarthy-like purge of "sexists" and "apologists." Millions of people watch Jeopardy, and among those millions, there are trolls and harassers. Those people are the problem; the people of this forum are not.
You don't realize the irony of your own words. As of several months ago, it WAS in fact in need of a purge. The women of this forum took action; the offending party was finally removed. If we had followed your logic, the poster in question would have remained here, continuing to harass people, because "there's nothing that can be done."

THAT is why I am looking over my glasses at you in annoyance. We have taken action where action has been needed in the past, and good things have been accomplished because of it.
All forums ban members and that gets no argument from me. What I dont accept is collective guilt and suspicion, where anyone who doesnt virtue signal loudly enough and on demand is accused of being a closet bigot, then having to prove his innocence. We are each of us responsible for our actions. Nothing more.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by zakharov »

DysonSphere wrote:
TheSunWillComeOut wrote:
DysonSphere wrote: A last sentiment I will offer - unsolicited though it may be - is I don't think this forum is in need of a McCarthy-like purge of "sexists" and "apologists." Millions of people watch Jeopardy, and among those millions, there are trolls and harassers. Those people are the problem; the people of this forum are not.
You don't realize the irony of your own words. As of several months ago, it WAS in fact in need of a purge. The women of this forum took action; the offending party was finally removed. If we had followed your logic, the poster in question would have remained here, continuing to harass people, because "there's nothing that can be done."

THAT is why I am looking over my glasses at you in annoyance. We have taken action where action has been needed in the past, and good things have been accomplished because of it.
All forums ban members and that gets no argument from me. What I dont accept is collective guilt and suspicion, where anyone who doesnt virtue signal loudly enough and on demand is accused of being a closet bigot, then having to prove his innocence. We are each of us responsible for our actions. Nothing more.
If you know people who behave this way and don't call them on it, then you're part of the problem. Also you keep saying you'll go away and yet you haven't, what's up with that?
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

When people talk to me I respond. I havent broadened my replies beyond what was addressed to me, as I am doing with you now.

I dont know of any harassers. If I see any, Ill let an admin know.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by Winchell Factor »

DysonSphere wrote:What I dont accept is collective guilt and suspicion, where anyone who doesnt virtue signal loudly enough and on demand is accused of being a closet bigot, then having to prove his innocence. We are each of us responsible for our actions. Nothing more.
This comment seems to me to imply there are two sides to the question, is it OK to sexually harass women online because they appeared on a TV game show, or to tolerate that behavior in others?

If there's any debate about that, I'm really dismayed.

Americans like to think of themselves as fair-minded, so they look for two valid sides to any question that's on the sane side of, "Should we teach third-graders how to cook meth?"

I would contend that anybody who objects to the sexual harassment of women online less than vigorously is not doing his or her part.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

I would contend that anybody who objects to the sexual harassment of women online less than vigorously is not doing his or her part.
I object to the sexual harassment of women online. Vigorously so.

This doesn't prevent any harassment, and in some cases may even exacerbate it. Trolls don't care.
Last edited by DysonSphere on Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by triviawayne »

DysonSphere wrote:
grindcore wrote:
DysonSphere wrote:No politicizing Jeopardy, pls. Thx.
Who's politicizing?

What's the best way to tackle this problem? Or is it not a problem?
Political leanings will largely dictate the extent to which this is seen as warranting drastic action. I'll decline to go any further after seeing Golf mobbed for what I considered a rather innocuous observation. I just like trivia and come here to help my own study.
So...uh...which part of the title of this thread made you think the content would help you with your own study?
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by CailinGaoilge »

DysonSphere wrote:
I would contend that anybody who objects to the sexual harassment of women online less than vigorously is not doing his or her part.
I object to the sexual harassment of women online. Vigorously so.

Amount of harassment this prevents: zero. Trolls don't care.
But do you 'object' in your head, or do you object by challenging it when you see it?

Take a look at the Jeopardy! Facebook page. You'll see Vaughn (and other former J! contestants) calling out people who harass, bully or post nasty personal remarks about current contestants. That is the kind of "objecting" to harassment which does get results: even if it doesn't cause the harasser or bully to think again, it helps to create a culture which says "this behaviour is not welcome".

If you see such behaviour online and say nothing, then yes, you are part of the problem, because your silence allows it to continue.
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Re: Article on "The Ugly, Sexist Aftermath of Appearing on 'Jeopardy"

Post by DysonSphere »

triviawayne wrote:So...uh...which part of the title of this thread made you think the content would help you with your own study?
Threads can bleed into each other, and keeping tabs on the happenings of forums you frequent can be helpful toward using them as tools. I was sorry to see "the debate that ruined gaming/MTG/sci fi/etc." come to trivia.
Last edited by DysonSphere on Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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