Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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goforthetie
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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by goforthetie »

jpahk wrote: there's a long story about poppy seeds. maybe if i have enough energy later tonight i'll spill it.
Please do. It felt like an edit....

Also, how much did you apologize to Mark during the FJ break for possibly spoiling his chance at reaching 50% of Roger's total on the last clue? :)

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by okstater04 »

I don't have the episode in front of me, but am I correct that if Mark rang in instead of Joon on that final question, that Mark would have had exactly half of Roger's total?

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by boson »

jpahk wrote:i'm a little surprised so many people are discussing FJ, given that none of the three of us put much thought into it at all. i spent most of the 30 seconds trying to come up with something funny. i think i succeeded, but i felt outdone by mark. the wagering, too, was totally irrelevant; i tried to pick a meaningless random number, and mark's wager is the kind of code an idiot would have on his luggage.

in the post-game chat alex said they would have accepted "what is pie?", so mark that as a win if you had it.

there's a long story about poppy seeds. maybe if i have enough energy later tonight i'll spill it.
Oops - sorry about that Joon, of course it didn't matter, and I shouldn't have read anything into the final J answers. And I did laugh at "Apple Pie", but it was close enough that I started wondering if you were trying to get it or not.

Thanks for putting on a show we won't soon forget.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Woof »

I also liked these boards better than Thursday's, though I admit to not getting the significance of pi for FJ until Alex mentioned math in the run-up to the reveal. It's not so obvious when the number doesn't start with 3. I was a tad surprised by the slowness of Roger at various points in this game as I don't recall seeing that from him in any other game. Perhaps it was a sign of nervousness, as someone else said, but it left me a little less sure of his invincibility in this tournament. Mark was consistently outbuzzing both Roger and Joon for a while there, which is certainly no mean feat, and all of them had some very good gets. Roger's late DD bet stunned me, as I had predicted a 4K wager for him, but his aggressiveness paid off handsomely and rewarded his DD hunting. I was surprised that Mark and Joon didn't more aggressively hunt the DDs earlier given how close the match was. Overall, a good game and a fun one to watch.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by econgator »

okstater04 wrote:I don't have the episode in front of me, but am I correct that if Mark rang in instead of Joon on that final question, that Mark would have had exactly half of Roger's total?
You are correct.

Congrats to Roger on the win and to Joon and Mark for hanging in there until the very end.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by gnash »

jpahk wrote:i'm a little surprised so many people are discussing FJ, given that none of the three of us put much thought into it at all. i spent most of the 30 seconds trying to come up with something funny. i think i succeeded, but i felt outdone by mark. the wagering, too, was totally irrelevant; i tried to pick a meaningless random number, and mark's wager is the kind of code an idiot would have on his luggage.

in the post-game chat alex said they would have accepted "what is pie?", so mark that as a win if you had it.

there's a long story about poppy seeds. maybe if i have enough energy later tonight i'll spill it.
A meaningless random number? My first reaction was that, for a physicist, your wager was too big by exactly $1.

I got the FJ instantly, but didn't spend a nanosecond thinking what I would write down. It is obvious that both "pi" and "pie" would be accepted (as would, say, "peye"). I am really surprised that there is any discussion of that.

An interesting combination of great playing and nerves clearly showing, for all three. An epic battle, which Roger won by an appropriate use of nuclear weapons.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by sonjy »

Not impressed with the way Roger played the game. Pushing buzzer first then pausing to think - he's been doing that the whole game. Taking years to bet on DD??? Alex should have just dq'ed him for the question. Wanted either Mark or Joon to advance - ah well.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Rex Kramer »

I had the pleasure of watching this game at Roger's viewing party, along with John Krizel, NJCondon, and Raghu. And a whole bunch of Roger's non-J! friends, who seemed bemused at our apparent code-language discussions of Coryats and DD hunting. J! is always way more exciting when you watch with other people who understand what's going on, especially a game like this one where things actually were going on.

I wondered aloud whether Joon might have won this game if he'd had more than a couple of weeks to prepare -- especially if the old Boards, with their extensive archive of ToC prep discussions, were still up. Joon and Mark were both amazing players in this game, but Roger had a year to prepare, and, without hyperbole, I can say that I don't know of anyone ever better prepared for a ToC. Roger has his own mad skillz, but when they failed him at a crucial time, he was able to fall back on clear strategy and smart gameplay.

Roger also explained the poppy seed incident -- which I won't do here myself, it's not my story to tell, but it all made sense. No one's fault, really (at least the way I heard it), but I'm sure it was frustrating to leave that money on the table.

It's always a shame there can be only 3 in the Finals, but this ToC it seems more true than usual. Congrats to Roger, and well done Joon and Mark.

Rex

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by WRV »

cinemaniax7 wrote:Aaaaggggghhhhh! The Nashville affiliate mistakenly re-ran Thursday night's episode!
The Bangor affiliate did the same thing, although they realized their mistake before the second half of the Jeopardy round. They've made a lot of technical snafus this season.
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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by MarkBarrett »

If the game was not a lock then Joon and Mark would have known FJ and not gone for humor? Or only Joon knew it? Mark didn't? I blazed through all the posts here and I'm still unclear. The possibility of a buzz-off between Roger and Mark would have been something else. Since Mark crossed off Toronto and went for "search" that makes me think he didn't know the correct response and was at least trying something with a chance in his mind.

Roger made it not matter with the huge DD wagers. The Daily Doubles are there. You find them and then you use them as you see fit. If Mark or Joon find one and lead entering FJ then the wagering scenario greatly changes.

Tonight would have been a good first night of the finals. I understand why the powers set up the semifinal matches as they did, but I wish they had gone a different way.

In the TOC do the players really need "V" is for on the Churchill quote?

I was outclassed by the material with 16 & 10, but at least I picked up some trash with Hilton, Legacy and turban. The FJ clue had me with no idea where to go with the wording. Time was up and my page was blank. I added YouTube before the reveal just to have something to look at on the paper. It's not like I expected to get three in a row in the TOC anyway. 4/10 is about my normal, so I'm hopeful for a split to start next week.

I'm going to sleep on my thoughts for what might happen in the finals and post my guesstimate tomorrow.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jpahk »

goforthetie wrote:Also, how much did you apologize to Mark during the FJ break for possibly spoiling his chance at reaching 50% of Roger's total on the last clue? :)
i realized i was doing it as it happened, but honestly, i think i was ethically obligated to play my best at that point rather than trying to favor one opponent over the other. i love mark, but roger is great too, and it would have made no sense to try less than my hardest just to screw him over. now, if it had been a situation where letting mark in would have increased my own chances of winning, that's a different story than just wantonly playing kingmaker. i didn't have time to do the math in my head while still concentrating on the clues, but i'm pretty sure that if i hadn't picked up those last couple of clues, my own score wouldn't have been within striking range of roger even if he had to bet to cover mark doubling up. anyway, without time to work it out, my default had to be to just play my normal game, although i think you could kind of tell from my mien that i was already defeated.
boson wrote:I did laugh at "Apple Pie", but it was close enough that I started wondering if you were trying to get it or not.
yeah, my wife pointed out that the fact that i was so close to inadvertently being right kind of lessened the humor value of the joke. certainly not my intention! oh well. mark's was funnier anyway.

okay, so ... poppy seeds. i hope you won't mind if i copy & paste from what i wrote on my facebook page. (hmm, i keep plugging facebook. can't help it.) here's how i understand it based on my own memory, after-the-fact conversations with roger and mark, and some educated guessing on my part. basically, 3 technical glitches occurred at the same time:

1) after mark got the $400 clue in food science, he jumped past the $800 clue (the $1200 was already gone) to $1600. but it was the first time he'd gone out of order, so he caught alex off guard. alex began to read the $800 clue; meanwhile the technician manning the monitor had flashed the correct ($1600) poppy seed clue. somebody (john lauderdale? harry friedman?) yelled at alex and he switched over to reading the poppy seed clue. normally this is not a big deal; they have a 6th clue on hand as a potential replacement in each category to deal with this kind of glitch.
2) when the snafu happened, the sound tech lowered all the levels in the studio to zero because he thought we were going to break taping and resume with the right clue—but taping went on rolling, alex switched to the correct clue, and we were offered a chance to buzz in on the poppy seed clue. when roger won the buzzer race but hesitated, his red lights had counted down to zero but the "beep beep beep" sound that normally signals time did not sound. so alex just kept waiting until finally roger said poppy seeds, after something like 7 seconds.
3) alex, of course, didn't notice that the lights had got down to zero and so he said, "correct, select again." at that point the producers jumped on stage and stopped the taping, because he had noticed that roger had taken too long and should have been negged. at this point there was a 20-minute delay while they tried to ascertain what had happened and what they should do about it. initially they had us turn around, but it took so long that maggie came and led us off-stage and we sat and chilled for a while.

now, what could they do? they can't offer me & mark a chance at the rebound on poppy seeds because alex has already announced the right answer. (we both knew it anyway, but that's not the point.) they can't use a replacement clue—they only had one (the pectin clue), and they already had to burn it to replace the $800 clue that alex had mistakenly begun to read. so they said they would just kill the rebound, retape with the correct sounds and alex negging roger, and we would play on. it didn't bother me at the time and i don't think it would have affected the outcome of the game. you never know, of course. but i think they did the best they could under the circumstances.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by dhkendall »

jpahk wrote:now, what could they do? they can't offer me & mark a chance at the rebound on poppy seeds because alex has already announced the right answer. (we both knew it anyway, but that's not the point.) they can't use a replacement clue—they only had one (the pectin clue), and they already had to burn it to replace the $800 clue that alex had mistakenly begun to read.
I've always wondered what would happen if they required two replacements! Thanks for that!
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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by hbomb1947 »

Congrats to Roger! I'd felt that he were capable of winning in a lock game even against these outstanding opponents; but I sure didn't expect it to happen the way this one unfolded. :)

That he could overcome his uncharacteristic barrage of negs, not be at his best, etc. and still win this impressively is a tribute to just how multifaceted his skill-set is. Joon and Mark are both great players, and it's a shame they had to be matched up against Roger prior to the finals. At the same time, as others have pointed out, had Roger not been the only one hunting for DD's (or had either one of the two DD's in the DJ round been more challenging), things might have turned out differently.

I fully expect Roger to return to his QF level of dominance in the finals -- and in saying that I do not in any way disparage Tom or Buddy.

FJ was a near-instaget for me (the "piece of" in the clue led me to pie, then I noticed the digits in the number of shares . . . ) So I am now 4 for 8 on these TOC FJ's.
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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by JoshuaRQI »

This was a crazy game. It could have been a finals game. Great fight, guys.

I thought there had been some major editing after poppy seeds... haha. Oh, dear. Did it seem to you like Roger's strategy against two other titans was to win every buzzer race and gamble that he would know the questions?

Also, funny thing Joon, but watching you in the regular season my only thought for improvement was that you needed to start hunting for daily doubles, if for no other reason than to block your competitors from getting them, but since you were so aggressive, even more reason for you to take advantage of them. That was one thing I loved about Chris Fleitas (whom you defeated), he worked the categories in order but started at the $400 or $1200 by habit, just to increase his chances of hitting the DDs (side note, if he hadn't run into you, Joon, I am sure he would have been in the TOC). In this game, hunting was the absolute key to Roger's victory.

Anyway, impressive game, all. Thanks!

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by hbomb1947 »

jpahk wrote:
goforthetie wrote:Also, how much did you apologize to Mark during the FJ break for possibly spoiling his chance at reaching 50% of Roger's total on the last clue? :)
i realized i was doing it as it happened, but honestly, i think i was ethically obligated to play my best at that point rather than trying to favor one opponent over the other. i love mark, but roger is great too, and it would have made no sense to try less than my hardest just to screw him over. now, if it had been a situation where letting mark in would have increased my own chances of winning, that's a different story than just wantonly playing kingmaker. i didn't have time to do the math in my head while still concentrating on the clues, but i'm pretty sure that if i hadn't picked up those last couple of clues, my own score wouldn't have been within striking range of roger even if he had to bet to cover mark doubling up. anyway, without time to work it out, my default had to be to just play my normal game.
I've thought about this scenario before and I totally agree with you. Playing all-out until the very end was the right (and ethical) thing to do.

Joon, congrats on an outstanding season and tournament!
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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Bamaman »

I agree. Unless one player breaking a lock can enable you to win on a sole solve in FJ, there is no reason to put down your buzzer.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

Bamaman wrote:I agree. Unless one player breaking a lock can enable you to win on a sole solve in FJ, there is no reason to put down your buzzer.
And if one player breaking a lock can enable you to win (assuming first place is going to make the "cover by a dollar" bet), then you yourself can break the lock on the same clue.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Rex Kramer »

seaborgium wrote:
Bamaman wrote:I agree. Unless one player breaking a lock can enable you to win on a sole solve in FJ, there is no reason to put down your buzzer.
And if one player breaking a lock can enable you to win (assuming first place is going to make the "cover by a dollar" bet), then you yourself can break the lock on the same clue.
We had a long discussion about the ethics of this exact situation about 4 years ago on the old Boards, and at some point someone pointed out that it's not all about math -- that allowing your co-trailer to break the leader's lock might give you a non-zero chance of winning not because it puts you in mathematical contention, but because there is always the small possibility that the leader might bet unwisely after losing the lock.

Of course, in a ToC game, I would think that small possibility almost vanishes; certainly I would have discounted it entirely against Roger. But in a regular season game, against an inexperienced player, stranger bets have been made. If I'd been in Joon's shoes in a regular season game and the person in Roger's shoes was first-time player (or had already won but in doing so had demonstrated weak betting skills), I'd have let the Mark analogue have the last clue and prayed for a hard FJ and a bad bet from the leader.

But in this game? No way. Of course Joon had to buzz in.

Rex

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by billiej »

WRV wrote:
cinemaniax7 wrote:Aaaaggggghhhhh! The Nashville affiliate mistakenly re-ran Thursday night's episode!
The Bangor affiliate did the same thing, although they realized their mistake before the second half of the Jeopardy round. They've made a lot of technical snafus this season.
Then for the rest of the J round the audio and video were so out of synch (several seconds) that I was too distracted to respond to the clues! Things were finally set right in the DJ round. And yes, they do things like this quite frequently.

Before I'd even had a chance to process FJ, my husband blurted out "pie". I laughed at him, then looked at the clue and thought, "Hmm, is it pi?" When it was over, I told him, "You backed into that one, because I know damn well you didn't mean pi!" But we would've both been deemed correct.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by gnash »

jpahk wrote:i realized i was doing it as it happened, but honestly, i think i was ethically obligated to play my best at that point rather than trying to favor one opponent over the other. i love mark, but roger is great too, and it would have made no sense to try less than my hardest just to screw him over. now, if it had been a situation where letting mark in would have increased my own chances of winning, that's a different story than just wantonly playing kingmaker.
That is absolutely right. I've argued this point several times on the old boards, and it always surprises me that many people don't get it. You are there to play your best game - your first duty is to try to win, but if that's impossible, then still to play as well as you can. Intentionally letting another player answer when that doesn't improve your prospects is unsportsmanlike. You did exactly the right thing.
now, what could they do? they can't offer me & mark a chance at the rebound on poppy seeds because alex has already announced the right answer. (we both knew it anyway, but that's not the point.) they can't use a replacement clue—they only had one (the pectin clue), and they already had to burn it to replace the $800 clue that alex had mistakenly begun to read. so they said they would just kill the rebound, retape with the correct sounds and alex negging roger, and we would play on. it didn't bother me at the time and i don't think it would have affected the outcome of the game. you never know, of course. but i think they did the best they could under the circumstances.
It has happened before (many times, I'd say) that a rebound was not allowed because Alex had inadvertently revealed too much about the correct response. (It's different if a player says the correct response after the time is up, but Alex never says it was right.) What happened in your game had an added layer of complications, but the decision is consistent with standard practice.

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