Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by econgator »

RCraig wrote:I hope everyone will tune in for the Finals and root for me, Tom, or Buddy, or even better: all 3.
That's the one thing I hate about a ToC: who the heck to root for? So, I shall take your advice and simply root for a well-played and competitive 2-game final. Good luck to you all!

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alietr »

We knew this one was going to be a doozy, and it was. I'll say it again, and I mean it even more on this one, I hated the idea that one of you three was going to lose. What a tough draw this was. Roger, congratulations again, and I know Mark and Joon recognize if you gotta lose to someone, you can't argue with it being Roger.

But I also wanted to thank Roger, Mark, Joon and all the other TOC participants for being on here and telling us about it, I appreciate that as well.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by RCraig »

RE: The Poppy seeds incident
What Joon writes here is spot on:
http://www.jboard.tv/jboard/phpBB3/view ... =40#p12090

The main point is that there was no bell and I didn't answer after a bell. I answered, with Alex looking right at me, he ruled me correct and then we had to stop. I did not give an answer after the "time's up signal" causing my opponents to be unable to answer. The way it was portrayed on the show was not reality. It's a tv show where there's a lot of post-production going on.
I just really want to stress that because I've seen A LOT of people on the internet (and in real life) that are confused by the whole affair and some even accusing me of cheating. Call me what you want, but don't call me a cheater. I know no one on this board has, but I just wanted to air that on this forum as I feel this place has now become the de facto "record of Jeopardy! lore." Thanks for humoring me.

Also, I have heard/read (I forget the source) that they actually have 7 clues for each category, not 6. Has anyone else heard this?

If they had yet another clue available, I think the fairest resolution would be to use it, have me buzz in, time elapse, neg, and then Mark or Joon gets to rebound. However, they don’t ask the contestants what they think is “fairest” or “best.” If you haven’t been through a taping, it’s hard to realize how much of it is everyone on the show keeping you occupied and/or telling you what’s happening now or in the very near future. They have a well oiled machine and they know how to keep it running.


Nervousness, delays, and "stalling".
boson wrote: It looked like Roger was far more nervous for this game than for any of the others we've seen him play - maybe the negs to start, or just knowing the quality of the opposition?
I wasn’t nervous, I was tired. In fact, early on, I felt just like I did in my last game during my regular season shows. Totally out of it. I'm not sure I even heard/understood the Miley Cyprus explanation and that's why the "Bolivian Newton-John incident" occurred.
goforthetie wrote: There were a lot of questions on which Roger rang in and then had to think for a second or two. I suspect he deliberately chose a strategy of ringing in first and thinking later because of his competition, which probably accounted for at least a few of the negs. Maybe he can confirm.
Mark B wrote: But what was it, exactly? Here’s my guess:
{Buzz on Everything Strategy(TM) snipped}
I wasn’t buzzing on every clue. (ETA: e.g. I didn't buzz on any of the Silent Letter Words, except mnemonic) I was buzzing on every clue I was pretty darn sure I knew. But, to my own consternation, I was so tired that I was failing to pull even the most basic stuff.

Tron:Legacy: Knew it was recent Tron sequel, saw parts of it over summer, couldn’t pull title.
Paraguay: Knew it was Paraguay or Bolivia from landlocked clue, got confused by “Central South America” after buzz and recognition. Didn’t say anything, which is something I never do.
James Hilton: Brainfart on Hilton<->Milton, which one TWOPer chastised me for.
Pomeranian: Weak on dog breeds. Was thinking poodle/dalmatian at first, neither of which makes sense. Thought I could pull it, but couldn’t.
Rango: Knew this was an “R” movie. Picked the wrong one. I blame my Kia Rio.
Poppy seeds: I think the Seinfeld episode flashed into my head and messed up recall.

Btw, i thought “apropos” was one of the hardest clues of the Semifinals. Brian Meacham knew it. Not sure about the other TOCers.

StevenH wrote: I am looking for you to break the Chuck Forrest curse ;)
What is the Chuck Forrest curse?
jeff6286 wrote: Speaking of too much time, Roger took so long to decide on his final DD wager, that it seemed like Alex was about to tell him his time was up. If that happened, would his wager be 5$? Once again, is there any precedent for this? Has anyone ever taken so long to decide on a DD wager that Alex told them time was up? I'm guessing he didn't appreciate Roger's "Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no" response to his request for a second true Daily Double, because I'm pretty sure I've seen players take that long before without being told to hurry up.
I would never try to guess at what Alex Trebek is thinking, but based on his actions I don’t think he dislikes me. During day 1 of the tapings, he was joking around and goofing on me during commercial breaks on more than one occasion. I would surmise he said to hurry as he was in a lot of pain from his leg injury.

There is no time limit on Daily Doubles. You will get pestered by Alex, but there is no time limit. The most I've ever taken is 15 seconds probably. 90% of the time, the dead air is cropped out and not in the final cut. This time it wasn't. Probably because of the "ummmmm , no " exchange in the beginning. We still got through all 60 clues, not sure what the big deal was. (NB: contestant interviews are the biggest variable of time usage in a show according to my analyses.)
Budphrey wrote: I will have to admit that when he took a long time deciding on the last DD wager, I was briefly reminded of a past competitor admitting on the message board that he was looking to run out a little time late in the game when he was ahead. However, Roger's $10K wager totally erased that suspicion. (And the group used up all the clues anyway.)
Yes, I have never stalled ever. Instead, I am making a lot of calculations in my head. No one has really mentioned it, but my DD bet was more or less the best I could have made (probably could've been a little larger though). Came down to the last question to see if there was a lock-tie or not.
boson wrote:
Oh, one question for the philosophical judges: I said "epicurianism" instead of "hedonism". Is it good? Wikipedia says epicurianism is a form of hedonism, but that's the limit of my pleasure-seeking philosophy knowledge.
I was thinking the same thing while I was answering that. Initially and ultimately settling on hedonism.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by TashaOtter »

Roger wrote about his DD bets:
I have never stalled ever. Instead, I am making a lot of calculations in my head.
I think a lot of people don't realize DD bet sizing is something you can calculate - almost everyone realizes there's computation involved in FJ bet sizing, but DDs are seen as more of a gut instinct play. So seeing someone go into a trance for 30 seconds on their DD bet looks weird to them.

But DD bet sizing, especially towards the endgame, is hard. I'll never be a Jeopardy! champion, but I enjoy watching the game, and as a professional gambler I have a particular interest in the betting strategy. In FJ you can apply a few simple rules, on early DDs you can use general principles, but late DDs are right on the edge of being a tractable optimization problem.

Needless to say I'm delighted to see a really strong player actually approach the game this way and be successful with it. When I was watching this episode and Roger hit the last DD, I paused my TiVo, thought it over for about a minute, muttered "$10000?" to myself, and resumed. I was tickled when that was the exact bet Roger made, and when he responded correctly and came through with the lock.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jeff6286 »

I want to give a massive thanks to Roger for all of these explanations, clarifications, and other details. I hope that I didn't offend you with that "ummmmmmmmmmmmm, no" comment. I thought it was funny, and was a perfect response to Alex attempting to talk you into a true Daily Double. Also, that is great information that you are allowed to take as much time as you want on a DD wager. I was under the impression that there was some anecdote of a player being told that they took too much time, so their wager would be some pre-determined amount. I may have simply imagined that, or read it from an unreliable source. For some reason it never occurred to me that they would edit out the time the player used to come up with their wager, but it does make perfect sense, and yes, it did make this one seem incredibly long just because they apparently didn't edit out any of your "thinking time".

As to the poppy seed incident, anyone who really understands the show would never think that a player was "cheating" by giving an answer after their time was up. The way the edited version of the incident came out, it appeared that the mistake was entirely Alex's fault, not yours. I thought he may have erred by not allowing Joon & Mark to rebound, but after the lengthy explanation of the technical snafus that caused this unusual situation, it all seemed perfectly reasonable. I certainly didn't think that any of your actions in this game crossed any lines into "unsportsmanlike" or anything like that. I think it may be a testament to how in awe of your Jeopardy! skills that many of us are that some viewers assumed that you were stalling and/or cheating based simply on a few occasions where you buzzed in and didn't immediately know the answer.

I felt your pain on the "landlocked South American country" clue, as I'm sure there were many people at home saying things like "What kind of an idiot is this guy? There are only 2 landlocked South American countries! He didn't even guess one of them!" I had a similar incident on a locally televised high school quiz show. I buzzed in, on a spelling question of all things, and didn't even make an attempt to spell the word. I had assumed based on the definition given that I would know how to spell the word, so I buzzed in right as the host said the word, but unfortunately due to the sound of the buzzer, I didn't actually hear what the word was. My teammates were quite perturbed and baffled that I didn't even take a stab at it, instead just staring at the camera like a deer in the headlights.

Anyway, thanks again for all the info, congratulations on all of your success, and (retro) good luck this week in the finals. Also, I'm sure you've never, ever heard this before, but I was a big fan of yours during your days with the 'Niners.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

RCraig wrote:Also, I have heard/read (I forget the source) that they actually have 7 clues for each category, not 6. Has anyone else heard this?
I heard it right here, just now. I'll start spreading it around and we'll see if some independent confirmation of this fact doesn't make its way back to you.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by StevenH »

RCraig wrote: What is the Chuck Forrest curse?
Something that I made up that probably has no validity to it.

It says that Chuck Forrest, who won the second Tournament of Champions of the Trebek area back in 1986, is the only person who has ever "dominated" a ToC, and may be the only person ever to win one who was the clear favorite going into it. And on top of that, some of the favorites who have lost it have lost under strange circumstances. Cases:

David Siegel, 1995: forgot to phrase a Daily Double in the form of a question on day one of the finals and was penalized, and may have won the tournament if not for that. Well, ok, since mbclev isn't here I will say that I do think that David would have won the tournament if he had phrased that clue in the form of a question, but it's not a sure thing.
Doug Lach, 2001: had to play Brad Rutter in the quarterfinals and was outbuzzed by him on nearly ever clue, and didn't advance to the semifinals. If TPTB knew just how good Brad was I would guess that they wouldn't have put him and Doug against each other in the quarterfinals, but I can't say for sure.
Brian Weikle, 2003: Made a math error in FJ on day 2 of the finals and came up $200 short of the FJ wager that he needed to cover Mark Dawson's two-day total. They both got the clue correct, and Mark went all in and won by $199.
Larissa Kelly, 2009: Her 10/10 on FJs came to an end on game 2 of the finals when she missed the "George" clue. Dan and Aaron both got it correct, and Dan won. Larissa was in first place going into FJ and made the cover bet, so she would have won had she responded correctly.

I guess that Leszek Pawlowicz, Mike Dupee, and Dan Melia might have all been the favorites in their ToCs, but I wasn't watching back then so I am not sure.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by lonesomeseagull »

For FJ, I'm wondering, since it was a triple stumper and it was based on an actual quote, is the correct answer "pi" or "pie"? I had the former, but was very nervous about it, Alex's comments didn't completely calm me either.[/quote]

We asked after the game, and they said that they would have accepted "pie."

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by legendneverdies »

StevenH wrote:
RCraig wrote: What is the Chuck Forrest curse?
Something that I made up that probably has no validity to it.

It says that Chuck Forrest, who won the second Tournament of Champions of the Trebek area back in 1986, is the only person who has ever "dominated" a ToC, and may be the only person ever to win one who was the clear favorite going into it. And on top of that, some of the favorites who have lost it have lost under strange circumstances. Cases:

David Siegel, 1995: forgot to phrase a Daily Double in the form of a question on day one of the finals and was penalized, and may have won the tournament if not for that. Well, ok, since mbclev isn't here I will say that I do think that David would have won the tournament if he had phrased that clue in the form of a question, but it's not a sure thing.
Doug Lach, 2001: had to play Brad Rutter in the quarterfinals and was outbuzzed by him on nearly ever clue, and didn't advance to the semifinals. If TPTB knew just how good Brad was I would guess that they wouldn't have put him and Doug against each other in the quarterfinals, but I can't say for sure.

For those who were not around or quite young 25 years ago, Chuck Forrest probably inspired the "criss-crossing the board" gambit we see from some players in this TofC and in other games. He was known for doing that. David Siegel did forget to phrase in question form, but as to whether David would have won the TofC otherwise is unknown. Other people have surmised that in the past, and there's no way to prove that. Doug Lach was the third highest five time cash winner in J! history under the old values with $86K.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Mark B »

RCraig wrote:I wasn’t buzzing on every clue. (ETA: e.g. I didn't buzz on any of the Silent Letter Words, except mnemonic) I was buzzing on every clue I was pretty darn sure I knew. But, to my own consternation, I was so tired that I was failing to pull even the most basic stuff.
Thanks for all your remarks Roger. I thought a lot about this game and it's definitely enlightening to hear your thoughts about it.

I didn't mean to imply that you'd buzz in on every single clue on the board. I do think that your aggressive style and confidence in your knowledge base makes you less likely than most to stay clam. In particular, you see a lot of players who ring in and neg on a few clues and then get buzzer shy afterward, while your mindset seems to be "pedal to the metal."

I thought the whole silent letter cat. was tough, and I'm usually happy with wordplay. Mnemonic was the only one I knew in time. I was impressed with all the gets, and even as a French speaker would have had no shot at apropos.

Hope you got to take a nap before the finals!

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by bomtr »

Strange, surprising, and dramatic game. From the couch, it did look like nerves were evident, and not just for Roger. Several surprising misses and TS from three absolutely great players. And nothing to add to the discussion about DD strategy except for an exclamation point or three.

I had apropos right off, but then maybe because that word cost me the only spelling bee I ever lost below the state level (one for two there) at the age of 11. Hard to forget agents of failure even decades later.

And no one has mentioned this, but I'm curious. Why was Joon's response of idealism unsatisfactory for the clue that they accepted perfectionism for? His chagrined head gesture pretty much mirrored mine when he was negged. Full disclosure: idealism was my response too.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by dhkendall »

StevenH wrote:
RCraig wrote: What is the Chuck Forrest curse?
Something that I made up that probably has no validity to it.

It says that Chuck Forrest, who won the second Tournament of Champions of the Trebek area back in 1986, is the only person who has ever "dominated" a ToC, and may be the only person ever to win one who was the clear favorite going into it. And on top of that, some of the favorites who have lost it have lost under strange circumstances. Cases:

Doug Lach, 2001: had to play Brad Rutter in the quarterfinals and was outbuzzed by him on nearly ever clue, and didn't advance to the semifinals. If TPTB knew just how good Brad was I would guess that they wouldn't have put him and Doug against each other in the quarterfinals, but I can't say for sure.
So you're saying that Brad was *not* the favourite going into his TOC? Considering what he went on to achieve, I find that hard to believe.

(And maybe it's because of "the curse" that Ken never was put in a TOC. ;))
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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jpahk »

bomtr wrote:And no one has mentioned this, but I'm curious. Why was Joon's response of idealism unsatisfactory for the clue that they accepted perfectionism for? His chagrined head gesture pretty much mirrored mine when he was negged. Full disclosure: idealism was my response too.
here's the clue in question:
The idea that the good can be objectively found is part of this -ism, also referring to obsessively high standards
i was surprised (and, i guess, chagrined) at the time, but in retrospect, that's not what idealism means (in a philosophical context). philosophical idealism is more about the primacy of thoughts/ideas over the material world, which doesn't really have much to do with ethics per se. i don't love that description of moral perfectionism, but it is "part of" some strains of perfectionism so it's accurate.

also, perfectionism is also a slightly better fit for the second part of the clue.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by StevenH »

dhkendall wrote:
StevenH wrote:
RCraig wrote: What is the Chuck Forrest curse?
Something that I made up that probably has no validity to it.

It says that Chuck Forrest, who won the second Tournament of Champions of the Trebek area back in 1986, is the only person who has ever "dominated" a ToC, and may be the only person ever to win one who was the clear favorite going into it. And on top of that, some of the favorites who have lost it have lost under strange circumstances. Cases:

Doug Lach, 2001: had to play Brad Rutter in the quarterfinals and was outbuzzed by him on nearly ever clue, and didn't advance to the semifinals. If TPTB knew just how good Brad was I would guess that they wouldn't have put him and Doug against each other in the quarterfinals, but I can't say for sure.
So you're saying that Brad was *not* the favourite going into his TOC? Considering what he went on to achieve, I find that hard to believe.

(And maybe it's because of "the curse" that Ken never was put in a TOC. ;))
I would have guessed that Doug was the favorite, given the amount of money that he won in his five games (as legendneverdies pointed out). Granted, Brad would have been higher up on the list of money winners if he hadn't wagered big and missed on a FJ where he already had a lock game. I watched the show back then but didn't follow it as closely as I do now, so I could be wrong.

Doug also suffered a tough loss in his first round UToC game: http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=208
Last edited by StevenH on Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

I didn't find the silent letter category particularly tough, only clamming on "coup" (the definition threw me off; I usually associate "coup" with "takeover"). I don't know what other people's processes were in getting the clues, but the silent letter tended to be an afterthought, a sort of filter that I tested my words against as I reacted to the definitions (and none of my gut reactions failed the test). I'm slightly less sure saying that about "mnemonic" and "apropos," though; I feel like I got those from some sort of symbiosis between the letter and definition.

But I consider wordplay to be a strong suit.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by periwinkle »

A tremendously exciting game, with great play all around. It really felt like a final rather than a semifinal.
Many congratulations to Roger for the win, and to Joon and Mark for such strong play -- I loved that this match was in contention with the lead going back and forth most of the way through.

Cannot wait for the final tonight and tomorrow.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by TriviaBug »

Another feather in the cap for Roger. He won because he was a student of the game. Joon was his equal in knowledge and both Joon and Mark more than matched him in buzzer prowess. Even on a day when he was sloppy, he still found a way to win.

Joon and Mark, it was tremendous to see you guys compete so well. Some of your gets (Patricia Nepal for example) were awesome and even your wrong answers (fasting, Idealism) showed a lot of thought. You are in the top-4 of my list in this tough, tough line-up.

Also, would it have killed the writers to write tougher clues than 'Mensheviks' and 'the rule of thirds' for the 2K level on a ToC semis board?

It will be exciting to see Tom and Roger go head-to-head over two days but I cannot help but feel a sense of inevitability about Roger taking the whole thing home (no offense to Buddy).
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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alamble »

TriviaBug wrote:Another feather in the cap for Roger. He won because he was a student of the game. Joon was his equal in knowledge and both Joon and Mark more than matched him in buzzer prowess. Even on a day when he was sloppy, he still found a way to win.

Joon and Mark, it was tremendous to see you guys compete so well. Some of your gets (Patricia Nepal for example) were awesome and even your wrong answers (fasting, Idealism) showed a lot of thought. You are in the top-4 of my list in this tough, tough line-up.

Also, would it have killed the writers to write tougher clues than 'Mensheviks' and 'the rule of thirds' for the 2K level on a ToC semis board?
I suspect the "rule of thirds" clue might have been a little more difficult had it been a plain old text clue, and not had Jimmy actually demonstrating the philosophy.

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by heelsrule1988 »

You know much-hyped matchups end up being duds more often than not? This was not one of those matchups. Completely as good as advertised. The kamikaze DD wagering that Roger lives and dies by was good to him in this one, and that's why he came out on top. Congratulations to all three of you on a fine effort... and retroactive good luck in the finals, Roger!

I loved the FJ responses, by the way... I could just tell you guys were going to ham it up when you were writing them down. Mark's response took me a few seconds to understand, but I got it. :P

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Re: Friday, November 11, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

heelsrule1988 wrote:The kamikaze DD wagering that Roger lives and dies by
I don't think he's ever died by it!

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