Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Spaceman Spiff
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Spaceman Spiff » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:12 pm

silverscreentest wrote:There are many sports that have world team competitions that are called the World Cup, but I think soccer is the only one asked about on Jeopardy. [/url]
I think that, generally, when just "World Cup" is used, it's accepted as the global soccer championship, just as "World Series" refers to the champion of MLB. Interesting that "World Cup" was never trademarked in and of itself, but every time you see the scroll on the sports channels for "FIFA World Cup" there is always a "TM" attached to it.

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by This Is Kirk! » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:27 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:I think that, generally, when just "World Cup" is used, it's accepted as the global soccer championship
I'd posit that you "generally" hear about the World Cup in reference to soccer because soccer is the world's most popular sport, not because using "World Cup" without a qualifier is assumed to mean the soccer event.

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:19 pm

John Boy wrote:Was it just me or did others think this was an awfully tough clue for teens?
I agree with davey. It was probably harder for the oldsters. The results bear this out (though without a great deal of statistical significance). Two contestants got it right and one contestant talked herself into a plausible wrong answer by knowing MORE than most of us did.

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Spaceman Spiff » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:33 pm

ElendilPickle wrote:
TenPoundHammer wrote:
Hula is "sensual"?
Many of the ancient kahiko hula are.
phpBB [video]
One thing I remember from going to a luau in Maui (Old Lahaina Luau, which some consider the best and most authentic) was when they went through the history of the hula. The earlier versions were pretty wild. The style that was more subdued (as seen in many movies of the mid-20th century) came to be in the 19th century, after the missionaries tamed the dances down because they deemed them to be too heathen.

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:24 pm

John Boy wrote: Was it just me or did others think this was an awfully tough clue for teens?
Lord of the Flies is required reading in a great many high school classes.

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by flutist319 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:42 pm

My instant response was "I bet this is Simon from Lord of the Flies", but by the end of the time my money was on Piggy. Partially on the basis that the question writers would be more likely to ask for him. Simon is the one who says most of the philosophical-sounding stuff, as I recall, but I figured Piggy must have said something to make Roger so mad. It's been about 12 years since I read the book.

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:51 pm

flutist319 wrote:My instant response was "I bet this is Simon from Lord of the Flies", but by the end of the time my money was on Piggy. Partially on the basis that the question writers would be more likely to ask for him. Simon is the one who says most of the philosophical-sounding stuff, as I recall, but I figured Piggy must have said something to make Roger so mad. It's been about 12 years since I read the book.
I think you're right that they're much more likely to ask about Piggy than Simon. But the clue also fits my memory of Piggy better than Simon. Simon is the Christ figure who dies for their sins. I don't see him as arguing for law and order so much as just helplessly distraught by the growing evil in the world. Piggy, on the other hand, is the kid who finds the conch. The conch is pretty much an allegorical symbol for law and order. The conch gets used to call them all together into their democratic meetings where they vote on policy. And in those meetings whoever holds the conch is the one who gets to speak. Everyone else has to shut up until the conch is handed to them. One early sign of the descent into anarchy is when everybody starts interrupting and Piggy plaintively cries, "I've got the conch! I've got the conch!" But they ignore him. The FJ quote fits with that so much better than with Simon.

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by bpmod » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:04 pm

OK. I want to see the poll question "I instantly knew it was Lord Of The Flies" with some variation of "but I could not name a single character, being almost 40 years since I read the book".

Actually, now that I think about it, I am not sure I even read the whole thing. I read a heck of a lot back then, but remember not liking most of what we were assigned.

Brian
...but the senator, while insisting he was not intoxicated, could not explain his nudity.

If I had 50 cents for every math question I got right, I'd have $6.30 by now.

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by TenPoundHammer » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:05 pm

I just plain wasn't assigned books in HS English. I still have no idea how that was even possible.
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Category 13 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:42 pm

Two out of three good wagers on FJ. Lily made the suicide wager and got away with it.
I would have liked to see Lucia wager $4199.

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Bamaman » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:43 pm

I find it amazing you were never assigned any books to read in high school.

I read LOTF in high school and I am pretty sure Bamaboy read it as well. So it has been over 30 years since I read it and all I can remember is that it is a bunch of kids on an island that started killing each other. Like most everybody else, I got this because Piggy is the only name I could remember. I checked the Wikipedia article on the book and the name Ralph rings a bell but Simon does not.

Someone said this might have been too hard for teenagers. With the book being a staple of high school literature I would think chances are good many high schoolers, especially those who are likely in advanced English classes, have read it. My son graduated in 2015 and read it even in an era where high school lit classes are less heavily reliant on dead white guys for their curriculum.

If a player had not yet read it I think they would be sunk.

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by TenPoundHammer » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:50 pm

Bamaman wrote:I find it amazing you were never assigned any books to read in high school.
I went to school in BFE. I graduated in 2002, and even then I'm surprised we even had computers. My sister graduated from the same school, and she has read so much more than I.

Maybe i just got a particularly crappy stack of teachers. I know there was a huge retirement exodus around the time I was a senior.
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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by seaborgium » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:08 am

Category 13 wrote:Two out of three good wagers on FJ. Lily made the suicide wager and got away with it.
I would have liked to see Lucia wager $4199.
This is the sort of post you should be arguing with, IronNeck.

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:42 am

seaborgium wrote:
Category 13 wrote:Two out of three good wagers on FJ. Lily made the suicide wager and got away with it.
I would have liked to see Lucia wager $4199.
This is the sort of post you should be arguing with, IronNeck.
Haha, you're right; his criticism of Lily's wager was unfounded. Completely reasonable play. And Lucia wagering $4199 would have changed nothing in this particular case and possibly had a lower probability of victory than what she actually did.

However, I'm actually not one for picking arguments. Oh sure, I will respond to those starting shit with me, and over the pettiest reasons, but I rarely instigate anything myself.

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by seaborgium » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:21 am

IronNeck wrote:
seaborgium wrote:
Category 13 wrote:Two out of three good wagers on FJ. Lily made the suicide wager and got away with it.
I would have liked to see Lucia wager $4199.
This is the sort of post you should be arguing with, IronNeck.
Haha, you're right; his criticism of Lily's wager was unfounded. Completely reasonable play. And Lucia wagering $4199 would have changed nothing in this particular case and possibly had a lower probability of victory than what she actually did.

However, I'm actually not one for picking arguments. Oh sure, I will respond to those starting shit with me, and over the pettiest reasons, but I rarely instigate anything myself.
I grant you that. It was just low-hanging fruit on both sides!

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Category 13 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:40 am

IronNeck wrote:
seaborgium wrote:
Category 13 wrote:Two out of three good wagers on FJ. Lily made the suicide wager and got away with it.
I would have liked to see Lucia wager $4199.
This is the sort of post you should be arguing with, IronNeck.
Haha, you're right; his criticism of Lily's wager was unfounded. Completely reasonable play. And Lucia wagering $4199 would have changed nothing in this particular case and possibly had a lower probability of victory than what she actually did.
Of course it wouldn't have changed anything. All I meant was it would have been an interesting strategy to anticipate Sharath making the 4201 wager while giving herself the saftey net over both Lily's doubled score and an incorrect question from Sharath.
SpoilerShow
And in Lily's case, who's to say Sharath wouldn't possibly make the boob wager that Emily did in the second semi-final?

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:30 am

Category 13 wrote:
IronNeck wrote:
seaborgium wrote:
Category 13 wrote:Two out of three good wagers on FJ. Lily made the suicide wager and got away with it.
I would have liked to see Lucia wager $4199.
This is the sort of post you should be arguing with, IronNeck.
Haha, you're right; his criticism of Lily's wager was unfounded. Completely reasonable play. And Lucia wagering $4199 would have changed nothing in this particular case and possibly had a lower probability of victory than what she actually did.
Of course it wouldn't have changed anything. All I meant was it would have been an interesting strategy to anticipate Sharath making the 4201 wager while giving herself the saftey net over both Lily's doubled score and an incorrect question from Sharath.
SpoilerShow
And in Lily's case, who's to say Sharath wouldn't possibly make the boob wager that Emily did in the second semi-final?
Fine, I will discuss it case-by-case;

1. Only wager by Lily that makes sense other than all-in is $0. Reason being that the most the leader Lucia will wager is $12,601, leaving her with $8,399, a dollar less than Lily's starting value of $8400.

Ergo, risking any more than a dollar puts her in the same situation if she gets FJ wrong as if she bets everything and gets it wrong. Losing. While if she gets it correct with an all-in bet, getting FJ correct puts her in a much better situation.

Ergo, betting $8400 strictly dominates any bet from $1-$8399.

However, look at that $0 bet. For it to give Lily the victory,

Lucia has to make the full $12,601 cover (possible, but so is $12,600 to draw and not fall behind Lily under any circumstances, or maybe even a smaller bet) and get it wrong, Sharath has to bet huge (very unlikely given that there is considerable difference between himself and Lucia and he is a savvy better) and ALSO get it wrong.

Keep in mind that the FJ category is traditionally an easier one. Easier than, say, "Famous Buildings".

So we're talking perhaps 40%*40%*70%*20% (chances of Sharath getting it wrong times chances of Lucia getting it wrong times chances of Lucia making the full cover times chances of Sharath betting really big) = slightly over 2%.

Let's compare that to Lily going all-in.

Obviously, she needs to get it correct in that case, but she has more paths to victory since she will math Sharath's pre-FJ total, meaning he NEEDS to get it correct, and any likely bet from Lucia, meaning she NEEDS to get it correct, too.

Okay, if Sharath and Lucia get it wrong, chances of Lily getting it right are lower. (Dependant variables) But even if it's as low as 30%, we're talking

40%*40%*30%= 4.8%

Ergo, Lily's all-in raised her chances versus betting $0 and dominates everything else. She made the correct bet.

2. Problem with $4199 for Lucia is that it still loses if Lucia gets it wrong and Sharath gets it correct, as was the case for her cover bet, but ALSO opens her up to losing in the event of a correct answer by her and a very possible $8400 bet for Sharath and him getting it right.

Only thing $4199 for Lucia protects her against versus her true cover bet or a $12,600 tying bet is IF Sharath gets it wrong, Lucia gets it wrong, AND Lily gets it correct. As we noted above, that will occur in about 4.8% of instances.

I think that's less chance than Lucia and Sharath both getting FJ correct (36%) times the percentage of times Sharath will bet $8400 or more.

Which, even at a mere 20%, will result in a much higher number than 4.8%.

Ergo, $4199 for Lucia would be a suboptimal play.

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Re: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by David Madden » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:17 pm

Alex: Lucia Geng from Great Neck, New York. There's a Jeopardy! connection between you and me...
Lucia: Yeah.
Alex: Because you write clues for...
Lucia: The National History Bee and Bowl.
Alex: And that was set up by...
Lucia: By David Madden, a former 19-time Jeopardy! champ.
Alex: So you're hoping that history comes up as a category in this semifinal today, right?
Lucia: I guess so.
Alex: Okay, good for you.
Come join Lucia and me (and Michael Borecki, and Raynell Cooper, and Niki Peters, and a whole ton of other J! alumnae/ni at the 2017 National History Bowl National Championships next Saturday 4/22 in Arlington, VA! If you would be interested in staffing, let me know, as we could still use a few people to round out our staff pool (which already has 140+ people in it - but we have about 1000 students competing!) If you'd like to get in touch with your inner Trebek and read questions, we can offer travel reimbursement up to $400, plus room, food stipend, and polo shirt. If you're in the Mid-Atlantic / DC local and can get to and back from Arlington for under $125, you can keep the difference in cash too. We'd need you from 7:30am-5:30pm on Saturday - you're welcome to staff Friday, late Saturday, Sunday too if you'd like (or explore DC). If you're interested, email me at director@historybowl.com See also historybowl.com for a list of the 252 competing teams, and more details. Thanks!

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