Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by mxc_takeshi » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:10 am

38 right.

1970's (2), Ecology (3), Food "E" (2), Words (2), USA (4), Olympian (4)
Snap (4), Lit (3), Origins (5), Coin (4), TV (1), Olympians (4)

Lach Trash: shilling, trivia, Orange is the New Black; DD: hydrotherapy

I knew Galileo, Brahe, and Copernicus weren't German, but I couldn't remember Kepler.

Congrats Lilly!

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by MattKnowles » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:27 am

IronNeck wrote:
By all means, please inform us who has "shown" or "proven" it to be "bogus"?!

In addition to the already mentioned Chuck Forrest and Arthur Chu, a certain recent super-champion by the name of Matt Jackson frequently used a Forrest Bounce. So did the last ToC winner, Alex Jacob. I haven't looked up their games to be certain, but I believe Roger Craig, Ken Jennings, and Brad Rutter all used it, too.

Do you simply not like most of the great Jeopardy super-champions, then? And think they're "annoying as hell", too?
I just went and tried to check this. I only used a small sample size, 1 or 2 games per player.

Ken Jennings, Brad Rutter, and Julia Collins did not use a Forrest bounce.

Alex Jacob, Roger Craig, and Matt Jackson did use a Forrest bounce.

I think it's also worthwhile to distinguish a Forrest bounce from simply hunting for daily doubles. There are two distinct strategies, one strategy is to find the daily doubles as quickly as possible and the other strategy is to change categories rapidly with the aim of confusing your competitors. It looked like Matt Jackson hunted for daily doubles he didn't change categories rapidly.

Stronger players tend to win their games regardless of whether or not they use the Forrest bounce. The Forrest bounce might eliminate some chance and favor stronger players but I don't think it's been shown conclusively.

Both Lilly and Viraj used the Forrest bounce in this college championship final. I think Lilly was the stronger player and ended up winning, I don't know if her strategy necessarily helped with that.

I personally don't like the Forrest bounce because it finds the daily doubles faster and that reduces the amount of money that can be won. If the daily doubles are found at the end then the total score can be maximized and somebody can take home more money. If the stronger player wins regardless of which order the clues are chosen then finding the daily doubles late will give a bigger potential payday to the winner. I would advocate against it.
Last edited by MattKnowles on Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Volante » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:27 am

Kenny wrote:
IronNeck wrote:
Kenny wrote:Good riddance to Lilly and her ADHD habit of jumping from category to category and starting them mid-box (instead of top to bottom). I guess we'll have to put up with it in the TOC, but maybe there'll be someone who knows what a selfie is.
This is a very common Jeopardy strategy around since the 80s called the Forrest Bounce. Any sufficiently fast, knowledgeable Jeopardy player who does not utilize it is short-changing themselves and lowering their chances of victory.
And it has been shown to be ineffective. That whole notion of confusing the other contestants by jumping back and forth between categories has been proven to be bogus.
Wait, you're saying the strategy of the College Tourney winner, who won in a runaway, was bogus?

This must be one of those alternative facts I keep hearing about...

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:58 am

MattKnowles wrote:
IronNeck wrote:
By all means, please inform us who has "shown" or "proven" it to be "bogus"?!

In addition to the already mentioned Chuck Forrest and Arthur Chu, a certain recent super-champion by the name of Matt Jackson frequently used a Forrest Bounce. So did the last ToC winner, Alex Jacob. I haven't looked up their games to be certain, but I believe Roger Craig, Ken Jennings, and Brad Rutter all used it, too.

Do you simply not like most of the great Jeopardy super-champions, then? And think they're "annoying as hell", too?
I just went and tried to check this. I only used a small sample size, 1 or 2 games per player.

Ken Jennings, Brad Rutter, and Julia Collins did not use a Forrest bounce.

Alex Jacob, Roger Craig, and Matt Jackson did use a Forrest bounce.

I think it's also worthwhile to distinguish a Forrest bounce from simply hunting for daily doubles. There are two distinct strategies, one strategy is to find the daily doubles as quickly as possible and the other strategy is to change categories rapidly with the aim of confusing your competitors. It looked like Matt Jackson hunted for daily doubles he didn't change categories rapidly.
True, but I couldn't tell whether Lilly was using a Forrest bounce throughout, or just while there was at least one DD in play. Regardless, it effectively works out to a very similar strategy.
MattKnowles wrote: Stronger players tend to win their games regardless of whether or not they use the Forrest bounce. The Forrest bounce might eliminate some chance and favor stronger players but I don't think it's been shown conclusively.
There are even stronger players who win a bunch of games while not hunting for DDs. And betting poorly for DDs and FJs alike.

A Forrest bounce isn't as massively beneficial as DD hunting, but it still helps for a strong, quick-thinking player. And given her furious speed on DDs and FJs, Lilly definitely figures clues out fast. Which makes it an even better tactic for her.
MattKnowles wrote: Both Lilly and Viraj used the Forrest bounce in this college championship final. I think Lilly was the stronger player and ended up winning, I don't know if her strategy necessarily helped with that.
Viraj was nowhere near as out of it as you think. If not for his FJ miss yesterday, the slight miss on a simple DD today, and missing another easy FJ today, he would have been well within striking distance of Lilly, and finished ahead of Gary. So 3 questions where he didn't have to worry about anyone buzzing in ahead of him would have changed everything.

Viraj seems like a good player who simply has a few holes in his game.
MattKnowles wrote: I personally don't like the Forrest bounce because it finds the daily doubles faster and that reduces the amount of money that can be won. If the daily doubles are found at the end then the total score can be maximized and somebody can take home more money. If the stronger player wins regardless of which order the clues are chosen then finding the daily doubles late will give a bigger potential payday to the winner. I would advocate against it.
Finding DDs later also increases the variance. Which in turn increases the chances that the best player will be upset.

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by grindcore » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:04 am

Congrats to Lilly - fully deserving champ. Is she gonna be in the ToC after next, or are her and Sam Deutsch both gonna be in the upcoming one?

On my radio show, I get my co-host to randomly assign himself and me numbers so we can arbitrarily root for particular contestants. He set me up with Sam last year, and then Sharath on teen week, so I was feeling the 3 for 3 coming around when my man Viraj squeaked into the final. A couple unlucky breaks and stiff competition away from a 3375-to-1 three-peat, unfortunately.

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by dhkendall » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:13 am

TenPoundHammer wrote:Baba ghanoush + purple = How the hell should I know?!
Purple + "e" food. Yup, that's a real head-scratcher all right.
MarkBarrett wrote:Lilly may play with a serious demeanor, but great by her to work in "Stay Clam" in the interview.
(I think I mentioned this before but) Lilly was my rooting interest from day 1. Even before day 1, as I took Alex Jacob's quick poll on who you think will make the semis, the finals, and will ultimately win it all. I didn't know anything about the players beforehand (not even what they looked like), nor did I want to, just went by name and school (what was provided in the poll), for some reason, I thought Lilly was a good bet (probably her school, a very geeky one). I cheered for her several times, but the "stay clam" moment in the interview was when I knew I backed the right horse, even though she was doing very well at that point, I still would have been happy if one of the other two won (and they still could have) just for the boardie terminology shoutout. ("The spiciest memelord" was the topping on the cake.) Gratz Lilly, whatever I win from picking the right winner from Alex's poll, I will give you a third of it.
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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:51 am

Taken care of.
Last edited by IronNeck on Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Cat Hammarskjold » Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:57 am

seaborgium wrote:
Kenny wrote:Good riddance to Lilly and her ADHD habit of jumping from category to category and starting them mid-box (instead of top to bottom). I guess we'll have to put up with it in the TOC, but maybe there'll be someone who knows what a selfie is.
There absolutely will be someone in the ToC who knows what a selfie is; her name will be Lilly.
I have a feeling that Dr. Andrew Pau, Buzzy Cohen, Lisa Schlitt, Jason Sterlacci, Sam Deutsch, Seth Wilson, Tim Aten, Hunter Appler, Pranjal Vachaspati, Tim Kutz, Todd Giese, Fred Vaughn, Justin Bender, the winner of the upcoming Teacher's Tournament, and whomever ends up with the last few spots in the ToC also know what a selfie is.

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Bamaman » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:23 am

Poll request for "I had no idea what Lilly's FJ response meant".

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Golf » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:07 am

Kenny wrote:Good riddance to Lilly and her ADHD habit of jumping from category to category and starting them mid-box (instead of top to bottom). I guess we'll have to put up with it in the TOC, but maybe there'll be someone who knows what a selfie is.
Kenny wrote:And it has been shown to be ineffective. That whole notion of confusing the other contestants by jumping back and forth between categories has been proven to be bogus.
When someone makes comments like this we know two things. 1, the poster has absolutely zero clue about proper strategy. 2, the poster is either trolling or begging for attention. Either way, hopefully he has been reprimanded harshly by management as his first quote is just begging to be shown the door.

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by morbeedo » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:10 am

Stanislaus Jacob wrote:I precalled this on the grounds of "Who else could it be?" Except maybe Bach, but I was pretty sure that he lived most his life in the early eighteenth century. Other possibilities such as scholar Athanasius Kircher or general Albrecht von Wallenstein would be very improbable for a general-interest English-language quiz show.
Ditto! I flirted with Luther, Calvin, Durer then dismissed them all for being of another century. Couldn't come up with any other 17th C. German notables and had my response before Alex started reading the clue.

Congrats to Lilly. My only critique of her performance was the "nice" comment after Gary got Hello, Kitty on the rebound. She shoulda stayed clam there.

I thought Ursula LeGuin and Eudora Welty were some tough clues in American Lit. And the Words of the Year didn't come to me right away.

I'll take TV over video games any day!

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:21 am

morbeedo wrote:
Stanislaus Jacob wrote:I precalled this on the grounds of "Who else could it be?" Except maybe Bach, but I was pretty sure that he lived most his life in the early eighteenth century. Other possibilities such as scholar Athanasius Kircher or general Albrecht von Wallenstein would be very improbable for a general-interest English-language quiz show.
Ditto! I flirted with Luther, Calvin, Durer then dismissed them all for being of another century. Couldn't come up with any other 17th C. German notables and had my response before Alex started reading the clue.
I pre-called Leibniz. I switched to Kepler once I saw the clue. But I still gave Leibniz some careful thought, trying to remember any astronomy connection.

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Stanislaus Jacob » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:15 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
morbeedo wrote:
Stanislaus Jacob wrote:I precalled this on the grounds of "Who else could it be?" Except maybe Bach, but I was pretty sure that he lived most his life in the early eighteenth century. Other possibilities such as scholar Athanasius Kircher or general Albrecht von Wallenstein would be very improbable for a general-interest English-language quiz show.
Ditto! I flirted with Luther, Calvin, Durer then dismissed them all for being of another century. Couldn't come up with any other 17th C. German notables and had my response before Alex started reading the clue.
I pre-called Leibniz. I switched to Kepler once I saw the clue. But I still gave Leibniz some careful thought, trying to remember any astronomy connection.
Good call (albeit wrong). He slipped my mind completely.

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Bamaman » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:28 pm

I will say I am not a fan of the bounce. It confuses me as a viewer, especially when we have quotation mark categories and I forget where we are and give wrong responses by forgetting the category requirements. I also disagree it is the best strategy as not everyone (even someone on a Ruttter or Jennings level) may have a mind that works in such a way they can bounce around like that. I'm sure plenty of people have tried it and failed simply because they didn't have the knowledge base and buzzer speed required to make it work.

That being said, the players are there to win money, not entertain me. So whatever works for them is what they need to do.

Finding a DD early helps if you are a stronger player in general as it reduces luck and takes it down to knowledge and buzzer speed. Even if you find it and bet small, it means the others can't double up on a simple clue a Kids Week player would get.

But congrats to Lilly on her win, looking forward to how she does against the regular players.

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by AFRET CMS » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:34 pm

morbeedo wrote:
Stanislaus Jacob wrote:I precalled this on the grounds of "Who else could it be?" Except maybe Bach, but I was pretty sure that he lived most his life in the early eighteenth century. Other possibilities such as scholar Athanasius Kircher or general Albrecht von Wallenstein would be very improbable for a general-interest English-language quiz show.
Ditto! I flirted with Luther, Calvin, Durer then dismissed them all for being of another century. Couldn't come up with any other 17th C. German notables and had my response before Alex started reading the clue.

Congrats to Lilly. My only critique of her performance was the "nice" comment after Gary got Hello, Kitty on the rebound. She shoulda stayed clam there.

I thought Ursula LeGuin and Eudora Welty were some tough clues in American Lit. And the Words of the Year didn't come to me right away.

I'll take TV over video games any day!

TS: archery, trivia, Brexit, How to Get Away with Murder, Emmental/-er. MDD: hydrotherapy

Nestle confused me because they make so much more than chocolate and I didn't know the etymology.
I came up with Ursula K. LeGuin immediately, but then had to wonder when AT revealed the answer if my pronunciation might have gotten my response rejected. I've always pronounced her name "Le- Ginn", as in "Guiness," rather than Le- Gwin, as AT did.

I think I heard someone in the SF field pronounce it Le- Ginn in a long-ago interview. Asimov, maybe, as he talked about her a lot, saying she was a dear friend and respected colleague, but he hated that she smoked a pipe.

Any thoughts from anyone on pronunciation?
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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by alietr » Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:30 pm

I believe Kenny's comments have been adequately addressed at this point, and I hope he will be more circumspect in the future and make sure his posts are in keeping with the spirit of JBoard. Thanks to all of you who have chimed in.

Congrats to Lilly. That was a quite a performance.

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by TenPoundHammer » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:43 pm

dhkendall wrote:
TenPoundHammer wrote:Baba ghanoush + purple = How the hell should I know?!
Purple + "e" food. Yup, that's a real head-scratcher all right.
It is if you've never seen an eggplant.
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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Linear Gnome » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:11 pm

Kevin S. wrote: I came up with Ursula K. LeGuin immediately, but then had to wonder when AT revealed the answer if my pronunciation might have gotten my response rejected. I've always pronounced her name "Le- Ginn", as in "Guiness," rather than Le- Gwin, as AT did.

I think I heard someone in the SF field pronounce it Le- Ginn in a long-ago interview. Asimov, maybe, as he talked about her a lot, saying she was a dear friend and respected colleague, but he hated that she smoked a pipe.

Any thoughts from anyone on pronunciation?
I used to pronounce it Le-Ginn until I heard one of my colleagues in the English department pronounce it Le-Gwin. From her faculty profile:

"Research Interests: science fiction, particularly the work of Ursula K. Le Guin and Judith Merril, literature by women and women in academia, particularly science and engineering."

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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by silverscreentest » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:11 pm

Kevin S. wrote: I came up with Ursula K. LeGuin immediately, but then had to wonder when AT revealed the answer if my pronunciation might have gotten my response rejected. I've always pronounced her name "Le- Ginn", as in "Guiness," rather than Le- Gwin, as AT did.

I think I heard someone in the SF field pronounce it Le- Ginn in a long-ago interview. Asimov, maybe, as he talked about her a lot, saying she was a dear friend and respected colleague, but he hated that she smoked a pipe.

Any thoughts from anyone on pronunciation?
How about from Urusula K. LeGuin?
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Re: Friday, February 24, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:14 pm

morbeedo wrote:
I thought Ursula LeGuin and Eudora Welty were some tough clues in American Lit.
LeGuin is tough by College Jeopardy standards, although the show asks about her a lot. Welty, based on a photograph, birth year, and birth city, is very tough, period. Although both "Flannery O'Connor" and "Harper Lee" were bad, costly negs.

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