Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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IronNeck
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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:54 pm

Jim likely wishes he had best more on his DD and/or didn't have that costly Tom Sawyer neg. Without either one, he might not have had to worry about Deborah being ahead on a mutual miss if he goes for the lock wager against Elspeth. Charming and funny fellow, though.

I think this was a horrible FJ, one of the worst I've seen, and would have been shocked if it was not a Triple Stumper. Short of knowing about and reading this obscure 2010 report, how would one know whether this referred to Israel or Switzerland? At best, if you realized it could be Switzerland, you're still flipping a coin.

LT: America First (I guess none of the trio follow politics. Can't say I blame them), clipper, Scott Turow (I knew him largely through Jeopardy)

FJ: Confidently stated "Israel".

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:59 pm

Category 13 wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:27 pm

Deborah really fell behind in this game but recovered enough to be in striking distance at the last DD. Good thing she didn't use Iron Neck's wagering advice and bet it all. Now she gets to come back and play another game.
Hindsight bias aside, Deborah's second DD bet of $2000 was indeed poor and significantly reduced her chances of victory. If she had low confidence in the category, she should have bet $5. If she had reasonable confidence, she should have bet it all.

Just because she hit the jackpot and won on a TS thanks to an absurdly bad wager by 2nd place doesn't change the bet reducing her winning chances.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by hbomb1947 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:03 pm

IronNeck wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:54 pm
I think this was a horrible FJ, one of the worst I've seen, and would have been shocked if it was not a Triple Stumper. Short of knowing about and reading this obscure 2010 report, how would one know whether this referred to Israel or Switzerland? At best, if you realized it could be Switzerland, you're still flipping a coin.
It wasn't an obscure report, it was a bestselling book (at least according to its cover). I posted an image of that cover page upthread. (It's odd, though, that the clue referred to the book as a "study.") I agree that the clue was neg-baity, and that there was ambiguity if like most people you hadn't heard of this book prior to tonight. I'd be curious what percentage of the people who went straight to Switzerland on the clue were familiar with Israel's sobriquet as the Land of Milk and Honey -- since it seems that some boardies in this thread who went with Switzerland never even considered Israel.
Last edited by hbomb1947 on Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:07 pm

hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:03 pm
IronNeck wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:54 pm
I think this was a horrible FJ, one of the worst I've seen, and would have been shocked if it was not a Triple Stumper. Short of knowing about and reading this obscure 2010 report, how would one know whether this referred to Israel or Switzerland? At best, if you realized it could be Switzerland, you're still flipping a coin.
It wasn't an obscure report, it was a bestselling book (at least according to its cover).
As someone who is now closely connected with the publishing industry, I can tell you that "bestselling book", even "international bestseller", means extraordinarily little nowadays. :) The average person would be shocked at how few sold copies qualify one for a "bestseller".
hbomb1947 wrote:I posted an image of that cover page upthread. I agree that the clue was neg-baity, and that there was ambiguity if like most people you hadn't heard of this book prior to tonight. I'd be curious what percentage of the people who went straight to Switzerland on the clue were familiar with Israel's sobriquet as the Land of Milk and Honey -- since it seems that some boardies in this thread who went with Switzerland never even considered Israel.
Again, it's a total coin flip.

Israel has a lot of billionaires and exciting start-up ventures. Jews are often associated with banking, too. The "money" half could just as easily apply to them as to Switzerland.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by badgerfellow » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:11 pm

IronNeck wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:54 pm

I think this was a horrible FJ, one of the worst I've seen, and would have been shocked if it was not a Triple Stumper. Short of knowing about and reading this obscure 2010 report, how would one know whether this referred to Israel or Switzerland? At best, if you realized it could be Switzerland, you're still flipping a coin.
This was instaget for me because I connected a breed of dairy cattle (Brown Swiss) + money/banking together. +1 for being surprised that Alex considered Israel as a trap; never crossed my mind at the time. In hindsight, though, I see why.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Volante » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:12 pm

IronNeck wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:54 pm
I think this was a horrible FJ, one of the worst I've seen, and would have been shocked if it was not a Triple Stumper. Short of knowing about and reading this obscure 2010 report, how would one know whether this referred to Israel or Switzerland? At best, if you realized it could be Switzerland, you're still flipping a coin.
Israel was the only country I could definitively rule out. I still couldn't make the milk -> cheese (Gruyere) &| money -> banking leaps, though.

Not horrible though; I wouldn't discount players better than me being able to make those leaps. Would've been a great TOC FJ where us groundlings don't feel bad about missing it.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by hbomb1947 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:14 pm

Volante wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:12 pm
Israel was the only country I could definitively rule out.
How could you possibly "definitively rule out" Israel?

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Leander » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:16 pm

hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:03 pm
IronNeck wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:54 pm
I think this was a horrible FJ, one of the worst I've seen, and would have been shocked if it was not a Triple Stumper. Short of knowing about and reading this obscure 2010 report, how would one know whether this referred to Israel or Switzerland? At best, if you realized it could be Switzerland, you're still flipping a coin.
It wasn't an obscure report, it was a bestselling book (at least according to its cover). I posted an image of that cover page upthread. I agree that the clue was neg-baity, and that there was ambiguity if like most people you hadn't heard of this book prior to tonight. I'd be curious what percentage of the people who went straight to Switzerland on the clue were familiar with Israel's sobriquet as the Land of Milk and Honey -- since it seems that some boardies in this thread who went with Switzerland never even considered Israel.
Count me as one for whom this was close to an instaget for Switzerland, and I am familiar with Milk and Honey. Israel never occurred to me. I went straight from money->banking->Switzerland, and milk fit too. I was very surprised this was a TS.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by hbomb1947 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:20 pm

IronNeck wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:07 pm
hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:03 pm
IronNeck wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:54 pm
I think this was a horrible FJ, one of the worst I've seen, and would have been shocked if it was not a Triple Stumper. Short of knowing about and reading this obscure 2010 report, how would one know whether this referred to Israel or Switzerland? At best, if you realized it could be Switzerland, you're still flipping a coin.
It wasn't an obscure report, it was a bestselling book (at least according to its cover).
As someone who is now closely connected with the publishing industry, I can tell you that "bestselling book", even "international bestseller", means extraordinarily little nowadays. :) The average person would be shocked at how few sold copies qualify one for a "bestseller".
Well, the cover does say "THE No. 1 INTERNATIONAL BESTSELLER." Regardless of which list that claim relied on, presumably attaining the status of a no. 1 bestseller has some meaning.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Volante » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:34 pm

hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:14 pm
Volante wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:12 pm
Israel was the only country I could definitively rule out.
How could you possibly "definitively rule out" Israel?
The pun was an obvious twist on "land of milk and honey," ergo it was -not- the land of milk and honey, i.e., Israel.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Johnblue » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:37 pm

I was in Switzerland last October so this was an instaget for me. Very expensive place to visit. And yes, we saw lots of dairy cows & sheep. I was rooting for Elspeth but her FJ wager knocked her out.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:38 pm

hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:20 pm
IronNeck wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:07 pm
hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:03 pm
IronNeck wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:54 pm
I think this was a horrible FJ, one of the worst I've seen, and would have been shocked if it was not a Triple Stumper. Short of knowing about and reading this obscure 2010 report, how would one know whether this referred to Israel or Switzerland? At best, if you realized it could be Switzerland, you're still flipping a coin.
It wasn't an obscure report, it was a bestselling book (at least according to its cover).
As someone who is now closely connected with the publishing industry, I can tell you that "bestselling book", even "international bestseller", means extraordinarily little nowadays. :) The average person would be shocked at how few sold copies qualify one for a "bestseller".
Well, the cover does say "THE No. 1 INTERNATIONAL BESTSELLER." Regardless of which list that claim relied on, presumably attaining the status of a no. 1 bestseller has some meaning.
In the context of being obscure, it has no meaning, no.

A "No.1 International Bestseller", especially considering it's likely an intra-genre one for a niche subject (reference/travel books), could mean it sold 500 copies its first week, and no more than 20,000 since it released. That is very obscure by any reasonable definition. (For reference, people complain about movies being obscure that sold a few million tickets at the box office and hundreds of thousands of DVDs and Blu-Rays)

In fact, even 20,000 copies sold over its lifetime might be generous; it has only 72 Amazon reviews and fairly low sales ranks across the board.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Category 13 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:39 pm

MattKnowles wrote: The contestants got a lot of clues right I don't think there were any triple stumpers in the Jeopardy! round.
There was at least one: "America First", which I failed to mention getting in my first post, because I forgot to write it down.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by hbomb1947 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:41 pm

Volante wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:34 pm
hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:14 pm
Volante wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:12 pm
Israel was the only country I could definitively rule out.
How could you possibly "definitively rule out" Israel?
The pun was an obvious twist on "land of milk and honey," ergo it was -not- the land of milk and honey, i.e., Israel.
The fact that it was a twist in no way "rules out" Israel unless you're omniscient or already familiar with the book. The title could easily have been an updated take on "milk and honey" to take account of Israel's booming start-up economy. See, e.g., https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardbeh ... 1305c1a519

A quote from this Forbes article: "Much has been made of Israel's status as 'Startup Nation.' Not even the size of New Jersey, with a population smaller than New York City's, Israel is home to more Nasdaq-listed companies than any country except the U.S. and China. On a per capita basis Israel boasts more venture capital, more startups and more scientists and tech professionals than any other country in the world."

So yeah, for those of us who had an inkling of Israel's pre-eminence in this area (which has a lot to do with "money"), that country could hardly be ruled out, to say the least.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by CailinGaoilge » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:43 pm

Leander wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:16 pm
hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:03 pm
IronNeck wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:54 pm
I think this was a horrible FJ, one of the worst I've seen, and would have been shocked if it was not a Triple Stumper. Short of knowing about and reading this obscure 2010 report, how would one know whether this referred to Israel or Switzerland? At best, if you realized it could be Switzerland, you're still flipping a coin.
It wasn't an obscure report, it was a bestselling book (at least according to its cover). I posted an image of that cover page upthread. I agree that the clue was neg-baity, and that there was ambiguity if like most people you hadn't heard of this book prior to tonight. I'd be curious what percentage of the people who went straight to Switzerland on the clue were familiar with Israel's sobriquet as the Land of Milk and Honey -- since it seems that some boardies in this thread who went with Switzerland never even considered Israel.
Count me as one for whom this was close to an instaget for Switzerland, and I am familiar with Milk and Honey. Israel never occurred to me. I went straight from money->banking->Switzerland, and milk fit too. I was very surprised this was a TS.
Me too. Money made me think of countries known for high finance, and with the milk as well that ruled out certain Caribbean islands - so Switzerland it was, within about five seconds of the Think music.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by AFRET CMS » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:52 pm

This game generated a question from my wife for which I had no answer. While not the norm, it's certainly not unheard of for the winner to become champion with less than the $2000 awarded to second place.

My wife's question was whether or not the winner gets only the money won, or wins at least $2000 to match second place.

If the former, it would be theoretically possible for someone to become a five-time champion with five consecutive $1-$0-$0 wins, finish third in the sixth game, and be a five-timer with total winnings of $1005.

What do I tell my wife? Having never heard otherwise, I assume the champion's winnings are their winnings. But I don't know that for sure. Anyone?
I'm not the defending Jeopardy! champion. But I have played one on TV.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Volante » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:56 pm

hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:41 pm
Volante wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:34 pm
hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:14 pm
Volante wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:12 pm
Israel was the only country I could definitively rule out.
How could you possibly "definitively rule out" Israel?
The pun was an obvious twist on "land of milk and honey," ergo it was -not- the land of milk and honey, i.e., Israel.
The fact that it was a twist in no way "rules out" Israel unless you're omniscient or already familiar with the book. The title could easily have been an updated take on "milk and honey" to take account of Israel's booming start-up economy. See, e.g., https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardbeh ... 1305c1a519

A quote from this Forbes article: "Much has been made of Israel's status as 'Startup Nation.' Not even the size of New Jersey, with a population smaller than New York City's, Israel is home to more Nasdaq-listed companies than any country except the U.S. and China. On a per capita basis Israel boasts more venture capital, more startups and more scientists and tech professionals than any other country in the world."

So yeah, for those of us who had an inkling of Israel's pre-eminence in this area (which has a lot to do with "money"), that country could hardly be ruled out, to say the least.
Now you're just TPHing a counter argument.

I don't know the book (nor am I omniscient) but I've got a pretty good grasp on the machinations of J! writers when they pitch the clue from the knuckles. They wouldn't have used the subtitle of the book the way they did and expect us to take it at face value. There was a subtlety they wanted us to latch on.

So nyah!

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by hbomb1947 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:58 pm

Volante wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:56 pm
hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:41 pm
Volante wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:34 pm
hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:14 pm
Volante wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:12 pm
Israel was the only country I could definitively rule out.
How could you possibly "definitively rule out" Israel?
The pun was an obvious twist on "land of milk and honey," ergo it was -not- the land of milk and honey, i.e., Israel.
The fact that it was a twist in no way "rules out" Israel unless you're omniscient or already familiar with the book. The title could easily have been an updated take on "milk and honey" to take account of Israel's booming start-up economy. See, e.g., https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardbeh ... 1305c1a519

A quote from this Forbes article: "Much has been made of Israel's status as 'Startup Nation.' Not even the size of New Jersey, with a population smaller than New York City's, Israel is home to more Nasdaq-listed companies than any country except the U.S. and China. On a per capita basis Israel boasts more venture capital, more startups and more scientists and tech professionals than any other country in the world."

So yeah, for those of us who had an inkling of Israel's pre-eminence in this area (which has a lot to do with "money"), that country could hardly be ruled out, to say the least.
Now you're just TPHing a counter argument.

I don't know the book (nor am I omniscient) but I've got a pretty good grasp on the machinations of J! writers when they pitch the clue from the knuckles. They wouldn't have used the subtitle of the book the way they did and expect us to take it at face value. There was a subtlety they wanted us to latch on.

So nyah!
Shame on you for dismissing the thought process of intelligent contestants and boardies as "TPHing a counter-argument." There's a reason Alex anticipated a "trap" in this neg-baity clue.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by econgator » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:01 am

AFRET CMS wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:52 pm
This game generated a question from my wife for which I had no answer. While not the norm, it's certainly not unheard of for the winner to become champion with less than the $2000 awarded to second place.

My wife's question was whether or not the winner gets only the money won, or wins at least $2000 to match second place.

If the former, it would be theoretically possible for someone to become a five-time champion with five consecutive $1-$0-$0 wins, finish third in the sixth game, and be a five-timer with total winnings of $1005.

What do I tell my wife? Having never heard otherwise, I assume the champion's winnings are their winnings. But I don't know that for sure. Anyone?
Only the money won.

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Re: Friday, April 14, 2017 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by BigDaddyMatty » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:17 am

Coryat: $32,400
39 R/0 W
DD: 3/3
FJ: :mrgreen:
LT: America first; Pasteur, hedgerow, Azores, Scott Turow (DD)

Another awful last DD wager by Deborah, this time saved by an awfuller FJ! wager by Eldreth.

I don't think of modern Israel as the land of milk and honey, so my mind did not go down that path. I saw the cheese/milk chocolate and banking connection immediately and didn't give it a second thought.
Vowela wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:34 pm
I don't get why "hedge" didn't get a BMS.
They were specifically asking for the item noted in the lyrics to "Stairway to Heaven." Since hedgerow is one word rather than two, a BMS was not warranted.
theamazingchong wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:04 pm
I've also been negging a lot more lately, which is simultaneously worrisome and encouraging. Worrisome because I'm buzzing in and answering incorrectly, but encouraging because my answers are often a step off the right ones (e.g., Pompeii for Vesuvius on the J! round DD). Hoping I can get over the hump sooner rather than later.
If your experience is anything like mine, improvements may be just around the corner. I started watching religiously and scoring my games in December 2014. Since then my average negs per game has increased from 2.1 to 2.4, but my average Coryat has increased by over $2,700.
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