Wednesday, December 14, 2011 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[marpocky]

Moreover, the pronunciation as kee-lo emphasizes its intended meaning as 1000 grams. The prefix meaning 1000 (whatevers) is typically pronounced in context as kill-o-(whatever).

[bpmod]

Neon signs don't all contain neon. That a common terminology can be considered a misnomer does not mean a clue relying on the misnomer is invalid.

"A kilo" (which happens to be the response given and accepted) means a thousand grams.

edit: lest my emphasis on the indefinite article be construed as calling it a necessary component of the response, I'll just say I'm emphasizing the standalone word, as opposed to the prefix to measures and the suffix (as K) to numerals.

If a clue read "this type of sign, which always contains this...", I would say the same thing. There is a big difference between referring to something as it would be colloquially, and defining the meaning of that same word or phrase.

And a response of "A kilo" does not fit the category. Just as a (correct to the clue) response of kilogram would not.

Oh, and the 'correct' pronunciation of the prefix (at least in SI terms) is KEE-lo. And that measurement of distance that we always refer to as a kill-AW-mi-ter, is actually pronounced (but not by many people) KEE-lo-mee-ter.

And, it always ends in 're', not 'er'. Otherwise it refers to 1000 somethings that measure something(s).

Sorry for being overly pedantic; it's usually not my thing.

Brian

[marpocky]

I disagree that kilogram would be correct to the clue. The clue (in the context of the category) was asking for the NATO phonetic alphabet representative for the letter K, which is only "kilo." It gave the extra hint that the correct response also refers to 1000 grams, which "kilo" (not "kilo-") does.

As a further example, Lima is not the only "new world capital" but it's certainly the only one that is also the NATO alphabetic L.

[alietr]

All I know is that if you go to any respectable drug dealer and ask for a kilo, they will know exactly what you mean.

[bpmod]

I disagree that kilogram would be correct to the clue. The clue (in the context of the category) ...

I was making that precise point (the difference between the clue in the context of the category and the clue without the context of the category). The clue, without respect to the category, led you to a particular word. That word (the only word described by the clue) did not fit the category.

How many times have we used the phrase "my girl" to describe a person with whom we have a particular relationship? So many times that we cannot count. But if they were looking for the word girl, and they described/defined girlfriend, would it be so obvious?

All I know is that if you go to any respectable drug dealer and ask for a kilo, they will know exactly what you mean.

So, the clue should have read: "Equal to 1000 grams of a particular narcotic substance".

I will admit that I have led a particularly sheltered life when it comes to certain things. But I couldn't even tell you what that substance might be.

Also, I trust that using the word 'respectable' with 'drug dealer' was meant to be funny.

Brian

[Rex Kramer]

Also, I trust that using the word 'respectable' with 'drug dealer' was meant to be funny.

Funny? I am quite certain that alietr does no business with unrespectable drug dealers.

Rex

[bpmod]

Also, I trust that using the word 'respectable' with 'drug dealer' was meant to be funny.

Funny? I am quite certain that alietr does no business with unrespectable drug dealers.

Rex

Gee, Rex. We cannot even have a serious discussion because everything that comes out of your mouth fingertips is funny!

Thanks

Brian

[jpahk]

a word means what people use it to mean; lexicographers do their best to reflect this usage in dictionaries. if it's not in dictionaries, that doesn't necessarily mean it's not a legitimate definition, but if it is in dictionaries, that does mean it is a legitimate definition, no matter how many prescriptivists cry foul. so yes, kilo means kilogram. and yes, transistor means transistor radio and girl means girlfriend. ours is not a language where a word must have only one meaning, or where only one word may have a given meaning. to say that kilogram is the only word described by the clue is to prioritize pedantry over truthfulness.

[marpocky]

The clue, without respect to the category, led you to a particular word. That word (the only word described by the clue) did not fit the category.

Not to beat this into the ground, but I continue to disagree with this point. If anything, the only word described by the clue is KILO! See my earlier post about the primary clue being category-generated; the NATO alphabet word for K.

Kilogram may be the "more accurate" response for the 2nd half of the clue, but kilo is the only one that satisfies the entire clue (both being a member of the NATO alphabet AND a word used to refer to 1000 grams).

[Woof]

a word means what people use it to mean; lexicographers do their best to reflect this usage in dictionaries. if it's not in dictionaries, that doesn't necessarily mean it's not a legitimate definition, but if it is in dictionaries, that does mean it is a legitimate definition, no matter how many prescriptivists cry foul. so yes, kilo means kilogram. and yes, transistor means transistor radio and girl means girlfriend. ours is not a language where a word must have only one meaning, or where only one word may have a given meaning. to say that kilogram is the only word described by the clue is to prioritize pedantry over truthfulness.

Though it has no bearing on the discussion at hand, I trust that you have read David Foster Wallace's hilarious dissection of prescriptivism vs. descriptivism in his essay "Authority and American Usage"? It's well worth reading if not and certainly opened my eyes to the socio-political implications of lexicography in a way that even "The Professor and the Madman" did not.

[Volante]

That settles it, I'm going back to spelling Congress with an f. Clearly we can't have nice things!

"Looks like those clowns in Congrefs did it again!"

[dhkendall]

Oh, and the 'correct' pronunciation of the prefix (at least in SI terms) is KEE-lo. And that measurement of distance that we always refer to as a kill-AW-mi-ter, is actually pronounced (but not by many people) KEE-lo-mee-ter.

Reminds me of a joke I heard from Canadian comedian Lorne Elliot, on metrification:

"I still don't know how many kill-AW-mi-ters there are in a KIL-lo-mee-ter."

[opusthepenguin]

That settles it, I'm going back to spelling Congress with an f. Clearly we can't have nice things!

"Looks like those clowns in Congrefs did it again!"

How doth it keep up with the news in such wise?

Spoiler

Praise thou not the contraption thus.

[opusthepenguin]

Though it has no bearing on the discussion at hand, I trust that you have read David Foster Wallace's hilarious dissection of prescriptivism vs. descriptivism in his essay "Authority and American Usage"? It's well worth reading if not and certainly opened my eyes to the socio-political implications of lexicography in a way that even "The Professor and the Madman" did not.

That sounded interesting, so I decided I wanted to read it. Couldn't find the text for free online. So I searched around and discovered the essay was in a volume called Consider the Lobster and Other Essays. I checked my local library and they didn't have it. One of the other branches did. So now I have to wait a couple of days while that branch sends it over to my branch. Then I have to get in my car and drive all the way to my local branch to pick the darn thing up. In person. Stupid Internet. This kind of thing never happened when I was a kid.

[Paucle]

Awesome, opus- totally awesome.

[bpmod]

Awesome, opus- totally awesome.

Ditto

Brian

[billy pilgrim]

It's free here. http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/D ... tense.html

[opusthepenguin]

a word means what people use it to mean; lexicographers do their best to reflect this usage in dictionaries. if it's not in dictionaries, that doesn't necessarily mean it's not a legitimate definition, but if it is in dictionaries, that does mean it is a legitimate definition, no matter how many prescriptivists cry foul. so yes, kilo means kilogram. and yes, transistor means transistor radio and girl means girlfriend. ours is not a language where a word must have only one meaning, or where only one word may have a given meaning. to say that kilogram is the only word described by the clue is to prioritize pedantry over truthfulness.

Great, so now everything's relative and there is no absolute truth and reality is what we make it and we're going to have earthquakes, volcanoes, the dead rising from the grave, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Or that's what I used to think when I was a young English major. Now I'm mostly a descriptivist with a dollop of prescriptivism. I will say, though, that I initially reacted to the clue in question with confusion. Like bpmod, I thought "kilo" was too vague to be correct, but "kilometer" didn't sound right as one of the NATO phonetic letters. Then I realized, as someone pointed out earlier, that one never refers to a "kilo" of water and means a kiloliter. One never refers to driving 100 "kilos". (People who use the NATO alphabet might drive 100 "clicks".) Etc. etc. A "kilo" is a kilogram and only that. (Note: This just in. My American Heritage 3rd ed. disagrees and offers "kilometer" as a second definition of "kilo". This does not invalidate the clue, though, since it did not say "kilo" refers exclusively to 1,000 grams.)

Still, I think Jeopardy clue-writers are somewhat prescriptivist. They don't generally solicit a colloquialism without identifying it as such. So I found the clue mildly surprising. I'd have found it more surprising if they'd used such a clue when wanting the answer "key".

[opusthepenguin]

It's free here. http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/D ... tense.html

Huh. I even found that page in my searching. But a glance suggested it was a bibliography and I didn't examine it further. Thanks for making me give it a second look.

[Volante]

A "kilo" is a kilogram and only that. (Note: This just in. My American Heritage 3rd ed. disagrees and offers "kilometer" as a second definition of "kilo". This does not invalidate the clue, though, since it did not say "kilo" refers exclusively to 1,000 grams.)

I'd be curious how recent that kilo = kilometer definition is. If it makes you feel better, Merriam-Webster doesn't list that as an option (and the OED still says "Please log in.")