Thursday, November 30, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

[Ironhorse]

So for Final, almost nobody else seems to have been stranded by focusing on the New Testament line: "The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone."? Stranded, because it doesn't lead to a flag, and stranded I was.

Nope. The references in the clue (1 Kings and Psalms) are both Old Testament. But I'm not without sin and won't cast stones. I know how easy it is to start off on the wrong track and never make it back.

To be fair to sillymonkey, the "cornerstone" verse actually originally appears in the Old Testament (Psalm 118:22), but is subsequently repeated twice in the New.

[Elijah Baley]

The FJ clues are getting worse by the day. Are they really thinking that someone would be that familiar with the cited verses, or were they thinking that someone might know every single flag so well - or just that you might guess a country close to Biblical locations??

Because I got hung up on Kings, guessing that the material referenced was stone for the foundation of Solomon's Temple and then was completely lost on what flag might have stone depicted in some form or fashion.

Not sure what your problem is with this clue. As is the case many times, you don't need to know the verses at all, or really anything about the Bible at all, except, "in what part of the world did the events of the Bible take place?" Then "What country in that area has a flag with an image on it of something that might be used as a building material?"

Relatively few flags have such images, as opposed to stripes, colors, etc. What jumps out immediately is Lebanon, famous (even outside of the Bible) for the "Cedars of Lebanon." cedar = tree = building material. bang. done. Even if your confidence level isn't high, that certainly seems like a reasonable guess.

I agree with another boardie who expressed surprise that this was not a triple-get.

My beef is with the fact that the clue refers to building material(s) in two different Bible verses. I'll be the first to admit that Sunday School was decades ago so familiarity with the Bible is a bit superficial. So, in trying to wonder why they'd give those two specific references, I seemed to recall that Kings probably meant Solomon and more specifically, Solomon's Temple. And, what's the best building material for a temple foundation? Stone. And hey, it's even in the referenced material (which of course I only looked up later):

17 And the king commanded, and they brought great stones, costly stones, and hewed stones, to lay the foundation of the house.

18 And Solomon's builders and Hiram's builders did hew them, and the stone squarers: so they prepared timber and stones to build the house.

So yeah, there's a lot to mislead someone, although again, I see that after I made my comment, most folks basically took the route you described - Bible, building material, wood - Lebanese Cedar - done. Had they just said, "this building material referenced often in the Bible ... " maybe it would have been a little more direct.

[Stanislaus Jacob]

I guess I will be one of the few to defend "National League" as the correct and proper answer. Everyone agrees that "Pac 12" was the correct response for the Stanford Cardinal, not "NCAA" or "NCAA Division I" or (if we mean the football team only) "NCAA Bowl Subdivision." Granted, it is not a perfectly analogous situation since the clue specified a conference, which none of those other things is, but I think it is roughly comparable. MLB or NCAA is the overarching authority; National League or Pacific 12 is the league.

Yes, but essentially the clue was asking what league the St. Louis Cardinals are in. Certainly the National League is correct, but how is Major League Baseball wrong? Would it have been right if the MLB called itself "The Major Baseball League" instead?

I don't mean to be a fanatic about this (although maybe I should be, since the clue writers are on my side), but yes, in my mind Major League Baseball is an alliance of two leagues. "Major League" in the name is an adjective, not a noun. If we want to compare it to football, we had one football league before 1960, two rival leagues from 1960 to 1966, and then an alliance of two leagues from 1966 to 1970. In 1970 the football leagues chose to formally merge into one league. Baseball never did so, even if today the two leagues are (except for the DH) no more different from each other than the two football conferences.

[Volante]

The NHL, NBA, and NFL award one MVP for the entire league.

MLB does not award a singular MVP award. You have American League and National League MVPs.

That in of itself should be enough to say that the leagues are separate enough entities so as to warrant a BMS.

If you want to rebroadcast a STL Cardinals game, you have to get permission from Major League Baseball, not the National League.

Based on the category and the precedence set by the first clue, MLB should have been explicitly ruled out in the clue if they wanted 'National League' as the response.

[Volante]

Based on the comments, I guess I overthought this. Although I'll still point out that the Kings verse does, in fact, talk about stones for the foundation and stones are a finer (i.e., better) building material than wood - just ask those three little pigs.

The three little pigs clearly don't live on an active fault line.

[Volante]

I guess I will be one of the few to defend "National League" as the correct and proper answer. Everyone agrees that "Pac 12" was the correct response for the Stanford Cardinal, not "NCAA" or "NCAA Division I" or (if we mean the football team only) "NCAA Bowl Subdivision." Granted, it is not a perfectly analogous situation since the clue specified a conference, which none of those other things is, but I think it is roughly comparable. MLB or NCAA is the overarching authority; National League or Pacific 12 is the league.

Yes, but essentially the clue was asking what league the St. Louis Cardinals are in. Certainly the National League is correct, but how is Major League Baseball wrong? Would it have been right if the MLB called itself "The Major Baseball League" instead?

I don't mean to be a fanatic about this (although maybe I should be, since the clue writers are on my side), but yes, in my mind Major League Baseball is an alliance of two leagues. "Major League" in the name is an adjective, not a noun. If we want to compare it to football, we had one football league before 1960, two rival leagues from 1960 to 1966, and then an alliance of two leagues from 1966 to 1970. In 1970 the football leagues chose to formally merge into one league. Baseball never did so, even if today the two leagues are (except for the DH) no more different from each other than the two football conferences.

Except the NL and AL DID formally merge into one league, back in 2000.

[opusthepenguin]

So for Final, almost nobody else seems to have been stranded by focusing on the New Testament line: "The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone."? Stranded, because it doesn't lead to a flag, and stranded I was.

Nope. The references in the clue (1 Kings and Psalms) are both Old Testament. But I'm not without sin and won't cast stones. I know how easy it is to start off on the wrong track and never make it back.

The one about the stone which the builders rejected is also Old Testament. It gets quoted a few times in the New Testament, but the line they're quoting is from Psalm 118.

[Vintsanity]

Just another vote for "precalled Final based on the category." Almost impossible to come up with a clue for that category that doesn't reference the cedars of Lebanon.

[Ironhorse]

Just another vote for "precalled Final based on the category." Almost impossible to come up with a clue for that category that doesn't reference the cedars of Lebanon.

Somebody on Reddit managed to come up with a possibility; the key on the Vatican's flag references Matthew 16:19.

[AndyTheQuizzer]

Except the NL and AL DID formally merge into one league, back in 2000.

Maybe from a business perspective but certainly not an on-field one.

[BigDaddyMatty]

Coryat: $28,800
38 R/3 W
DD: 2/3
FJ:
LT: favoring (DD), Gone With The Wind, Narragansett, New Hampshire, There Will Be Blood, thymus

Whew! Glad to see you're still here, David. When I saw that FJ! category, I worried that you might have had a heart attack.

[Volante]

Except the NL and AL DID formally merge into one league, back in 2000.

Maybe from a business perspective but certainly not an on-field one.

Only in regards to the DH. And neither the category or clue specified whether the league was 'on field' or 'corporate level'

[Vintsanity]

Just another vote for "precalled Final based on the category." Almost impossible to come up with a clue for that category that doesn't reference the cedars of Lebanon.

Somebody on Reddit managed to come up with a possibility; the key on the Vatican's flag references Matthew 16:19.

Hence the "almost impossible." Whoever came up with that must be some sort of genius.

Spoiler

That Reddit user was me.

[opusthepenguin]

Just another vote for "precalled Final based on the category." Almost impossible to come up with a clue for that category that doesn't reference the cedars of Lebanon.

Somebody on Reddit managed to come up with a possibility; the key on the Vatican's flag references Matthew 16:19.

Hence the "almost impossible." Whoever came up with that must be some sort of genius.

Don't be silly. It was some basement-dwelling troglodyte.

[LucarioSnooperVixey]

22 R
FJ:
LT: Coconut, Gone With the Wind, Massachusetts Bay Colony, Narragansett, Pericardium, Birds

[Stanislaus Jacob]

A final thought before this game fades into the memory:

An argument could be made that "MLB" is a technically correct answer. "National League" seems to me to be the more intuitive answer - and yet I must be the one who is confused, because the show wanted the intuitive answer and the great majority of posters favor the technically correct answer! (And quite passionately so. I wonder if there is a generational difference here. Are most of the passionate pro-MLB posters in their twenties?)

[econgator]

Are most of the passionate pro-MLB posters in their twenties?)

Not even close.

[Ironhorse]

I'm pro-MLB and in my early thirties

[Volante]

A final thought before this game fades into the memory:

An argument could be made that "MLB" is a technically correct answer. "National League" seems to me to be the more intuitive answer - and yet I must be the one who is confused, because the show wanted the intuitive answer and the great majority of posters favor the technically correct answer! (And quite passionately so. I wonder if there is a generational difference here. Are most of the passionate pro-MLB posters in their twenties?)

I'm not favoring it, I'm just saying MLB should have been accepted without a BMS. If Matt gave NL first, that's fine too.

Also, no, not in 20s.

[Wheatley]

Alex usually says that it's a runaway, but he didn't mention it this time.

No clue on FInal Jeopardy, but I'll take this as a learning experience - in future games, I'll know that Cedars and Lebanon can pavlov each other, and that Lebanon has the unique tree-flag.

I had no idea that "favoring" referred to the bad leg. I said "favor" because it was a free guess, but had to pause and look it up because it had thrown me off.