Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by TenPoundHammer » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:21 pm

Given all the other people expressing difficulty with the Medicis, I will call it undervalued. I'll put it at 40% on the poll, tops.
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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by OntarioQuizzer » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:41 pm

floridagator wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:55 pm
Why did no one notice that the so-called new champ really lost? He wrote Where's WELDO!!!
oh, for the love of Pete.

You've been here long enough. You really should know better.

Literally. The judges have the ability to watch the light pen as it moves. The can literally see Kyle write an A and not an E and clearly and correctly ruled accordingly.

Quit turning this game into a PGA tour event; armchair referees are the literal worst.
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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by seaborgium » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:55 pm

For what it's worth, Alex pronounces Pieter Brueghel's last name as BROY-g'll (inaccurate though it may be), so ue -> oy is not without precedent on Jeopardy. (But also, the player who wrote "Vilnuis" posted on the old board to the effect that the "nuis" of "nuisance" could be pronounced like the "nius" in "Vilnius," and yet her response wasn't accepted, so...)

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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Ironhorse » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:00 pm

floridagator wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:55 pm
Why did no one notice that the so-called new champ really lost? He wrote Where's WELDO!!!Waldo2.pngwaldo.png
It looks like "Waldo" to me.
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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:11 pm

Ironhorse wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:00 pm
floridagator wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:55 pm
Why did no one notice that the so-called new champ really lost? He wrote Where's WELDO!!!Waldo2.pngwaldo.png
It looks like "Waldo" to me.
Image

Without a doubt. Waldo.

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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by econgator » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:13 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:11 pm
Ironhorse wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:00 pm
floridagator wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:55 pm
Why did no one notice that the so-called new champ really lost? He wrote Where's WELDO!!!Waldo2.pngwaldo.png
It looks like "Waldo" to me.
Image

Without a doubt. Waldo.
That's clearly W(mushroom)ldo

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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by dhkendall » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:31 pm

Peter the accountant wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:02 pm
John Boy wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:26 am
TenPoundHammer wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:18 pm
NHO "Lorenzo the Magnificent". Can we poll?
1. No poll. You'd be the only one.
He's not the only one.

I've heard the name Medici, but until yesterday I couldn't tell you a thing about him. Today, thanks to J!, I have a guess that it's a ruling family, probably in Italy.
Same boat as Peter. Know a few Medicis, haven't heard of Lorenzo "the Magnificent" (you spot me "the Magnificent", I'mma gonna answer "Gonzo"), have no idea why they are important. Same goes for the Borgias.
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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by OntarioQuizzer » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:01 pm

So, I'm also presuming that floridagator also believes that Ken Jennings responded with a "Whitzman". *eyeroll*
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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by trainman » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:03 pm

Anachronism wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:11 pm
Another really unnecessary promo category affecting both rounds. "Hi. I'm someone you don't care about from a city you'll probably never visit and call letters from a station that needs call letters only because FCC laws are as archaic as debutante balls, and here's a drab and relatively easy question that took far too long to read..."
Only one of the local reporters actually gave call letters, though.

At any rate, call letters are a bigger deal than the FCC -- try the International Telecommunication Union. (It's only an FCC regulation that broadcast stations identify themselves once an hour, and TV stations are free to do it as a tiny on-screen graphic. Otherwise, they can call themselves "News 2" or "10TV" or whatever, as four of the five stations here did.)

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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by floridagator » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:18 pm

It looks more like an A on the images that Opus posted than on my old-fashioned CRT TV. Hell, you can see the CRT lines on the images I posted.
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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Bamaman » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:13 pm

The d looks more like a cl to me. :lol:

I also heard her say Soyuz. I'll chalk it up to being a word she has read much more than she has heard or spoken.

I got Waldo, but I also never really associated them as being children's books. I hated them anyway. I've never been good at finding things like that.

I completed the partial run in the NFL category, but the names were a little tough if you aren't a fan. Yes, Moon is in the Hall of Fame, but he played part of his career in Canada and never made a Super Bowl. Palmer languished in Cincinnati most of his career and had only been to the playoffs three times. The four other names probably aren't ones an average non-fan might know just through osmosis.
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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Anachronism » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:37 am

Bamaman wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:13 pm
I completed the partial run in the NFL category, but the names were a little tough if you aren't a fan. Yes, Moon is in the Hall of Fame, but he played part of his career in Canada and never made a Super Bowl. Palmer languished in Cincinnati most of his career and had only been to the playoffs three times. The four other names probably aren't ones an average non-fan might know just through osmosis.
Palmer was also a number-one pick overall and has recently led top-seeded playoff teams. He's a huge name in the league. Moon played 17 seasons (and today became the most recent notable person accused of sexual harassment).

For wide receivers, Fred Biletnikoff is a Super Bowl MVP from the '70s and Randy Moss recently retired and will be inducted into the Hall next summer. Both running backs were named to the Hall of Fame in the last ten years or so. None of the six players mentioned haven't been on the short list for league MVP multiple times.

I think they all qualify for osmosis unless the average non-fan just isn't aware of specific positions. So it would be like me complaining about Simpsons episodes questions or opera questions - I just don't care enough to gain a basic competency. Say that too many times, and you're really not J! material (and I probably am not, given my seemingly consistent 32s on the test). Sports is tricky, because it's hard to come up with questions that complete non-sports fans can handle that would even be interesting to a sports fan. It's too bad Sports Jeopardy was so poorly produced.

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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:23 am

Anachronism wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:37 am
I think they all qualify for osmosis unless the average non-fan just isn't aware of specific positions. So it would be like me complaining about Simpsons episodes questions or opera questions - I just don't care enough to gain a basic competency.
For J! purposes, basic competency in opera is far easier to attain than basic competency in any of the big 4 sports. They don't expect nearly the same breadth of knowledge in opera. I'd love to see an opera category similar to THE NFLer's MAIN POSITION. Imagine the blank stares for a clue that gave "CESARE SIEPI, DIETRICH FISCHER-DIESKAU" and wanted "What is baritone?" I think most contestants wouldn't even recognize Fischer-Dieskau as associated with classical music, which is pretty much like not recognizing that Joe Namath is associated with sportsballz in some way.

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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Anachronism » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:55 am

opusthepenguin wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:23 am
Anachronism wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:37 am
I think they all qualify for osmosis unless the average non-fan just isn't aware of specific positions. So it would be like me complaining about Simpsons episodes questions or opera questions - I just don't care enough to gain a basic competency.
For J! purposes, basic competency in opera is far easier to attain than basic competency in any of the big 4 sports. They don't expect nearly the same breadth of knowledge in opera. I'd love to see an opera category similar to THE NFLer's MAIN POSITION. Imagine the blank stares for a clue that gave "CESARE SIEPI, DIETRICH FISCHER-DIESKAU" and wanted "What is baritone?" I think most contestants wouldn't even recognize Fischer-Dieskau as associated with classical music, which is pretty much like not recognizing that Joe Namath is associated with sportsballz in some way.
OK. But when 100 million US households watch Fischer-Dieskau hum a little ditty on an annual basis, we can drill down to that level of detail. There's a balance here, and the only point I'm trying to make is that those six players are at a level of maybe knowing the presidents. If you don't know Carson Palmer is a quarterback, you probably would need a Mount Rushmore of Brady, Manning, Montana and Bradshaw to get any football name question. And forget about any other position.

The Hitchcock category was interesting yesterday. I remember knowing the $2000 question, not sure why, but only wild-guessing at the others. The contestants seemed similarly unhappy with the category. There was a time when Hitchcock was to movies as football today is to sports. But in Hitchcock's heyday, you'd probably ask the detailed questions about baseball players rather than football players. Now, you get lots of Disney categories and people here talk about a "big 8" of Disney princesses, which seems like a bunch of Fischers and Dieskaus in tutus and sparkles for all the good it does me.

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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:44 am

Anachronism wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:55 am
OK. But when 100 million US households watch Fischer-Dieskau hum a little ditty on an annual basis, we can drill down to that level of detail. There's a balance here, and the only point I'm trying to make is that those six players are at a level of maybe knowing the presidents. If you don't know Carson Palmer is a quarterback, you probably would need a Mount Rushmore of Brady, Manning, Montana and Bradshaw to get any football name question. And forget about any other position.
I'm not sold on the popularity model as a basis for Jeopardy! clues. I prefer something closer to the cultural literacy model. I like both the difficulty level and the frequency of sports clues currently. I can do without the gnashing of teeth when contestants don't know "basic" stuff when that includes knowing who Carson Palmer is. I didn't. But I can tell you a basic fact like who conducted the Berlin Philharmonic from 1956 to 1989. I can also tell you which basic fact I think is likelier to still be known in 50 years. In that respect, Carson Palmer is going to have to get a lot more famous before he reaches the level of Herbert von Karajan.

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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by zerobandwidth » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:38 am

opusthepenguin wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:44 am
Anachronism wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:55 am
OK. But when 100 million US households watch Fischer-Dieskau hum a little ditty on an annual basis, we can drill down to that level of detail. There's a balance here, and the only point I'm trying to make is that those six players are at a level of maybe knowing the presidents. If you don't know Carson Palmer is a quarterback, you probably would need a Mount Rushmore of Brady, Manning, Montana and Bradshaw to get any football name question. And forget about any other position.
I'm not sold on the popularity model as a basis for Jeopardy! clues. I prefer something closer to the cultural literacy model. I like both the difficulty level and the frequency of sports clues currently. I can do without the gnashing of teeth when contestants don't know "basic" stuff when that includes knowing who Carson Palmer is. I didn't. But I can tell you a basic fact like who conducted the Berlin Philharmonic from 1956 to 1989. I can also tell you which basic fact I think is likelier to still be known in 50 years. In that respect, Carson Palmer is going to have to get a lot more famous before he reaches the level of Herbert von Karajan.
I find myself agreeing with both of these points, because the very scope of "cultural literacy" is as fluid as the list of individuals who are part of that culture. To wit, there is now a non-empty set of football players from fifty years ago whose names are generally known. The J! clues were crafted to have two names, one of which was current, and the other someone (e.g. Thurman Thomas) who is from long enough ago, and still sufficiently in the sports-trivia consciousness, to probably be on a track to become one of those names. We should be so lucky that, fifty years hence, cultural literacy still demands knowledge of philharmonic conductors and football quarterbacks, and is not limited to "reality" TV stars and the sordid exploits of the inexplicably meta-famous.
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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by squarekara » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:12 pm

zerobandwidth wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:38 am
We should be so lucky that, fifty years hence, cultural literacy still demands knowledge of philharmonic conductors and football quarterbacks, and is not limited to "reality" TV stars and the sordid exploits of the inexplicably meta-famous.
Amen.

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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Anachronism » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:20 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:44 am
Anachronism wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:55 am
OK. But when 100 million US households watch Fischer-Dieskau hum a little ditty on an annual basis, we can drill down to that level of detail. There's a balance here, and the only point I'm trying to make is that those six players are at a level of maybe knowing the presidents. If you don't know Carson Palmer is a quarterback, you probably would need a Mount Rushmore of Brady, Manning, Montana and Bradshaw to get any football name question. And forget about any other position.
I'm not sold on the popularity model as a basis for Jeopardy! clues. I prefer something closer to the cultural literacy model. I like both the difficulty level and the frequency of sports clues currently. I can do without the gnashing of teeth when contestants don't know "basic" stuff when that includes knowing who Carson Palmer is. I didn't. But I can tell you a basic fact like who conducted the Berlin Philharmonic from 1956 to 1989. I can also tell you which basic fact I think is likelier to still be known in 50 years. In that respect, Carson Palmer is going to have to get a lot more famous before he reaches the level of Herbert von Karajan.
I'm on board with a theory of cultural literacy as well. But it's hard to define. Sports seems to be more YKIOYD, so why not go a little tougher? We may not be able to find common ground on Carson Palmer - to me he's on a short list and if football is still around in 50 years (the concussion issue is a real concern in that we're now starting to see a class divide between parents willing to let their sons grow up to be Cowboys - and Eagles and Patriots), that's a name like maybe a Ron Jaworski or a Kenny Anderson. Guys who didn't quite make the Hall of Fame, but were franchise QBs for a long time. The NFL is a quarterback-driven league. The 32 starters are royalty and the dozen or so good ones are the face of the game.

So, how would we go about defining what it is to be culturally literate? Do we keep up with Kardashians? Orchestra conductors? Why is music so weirdly tribal? It's not quite as crazy as the art world - we revere realism and impressionism until all of a sudden all we care about in the last 100+ years is a guy who paints cartoon soup cans, a guy who drips paint everywhere and a woman who somehow makes flowers look like genitalia (a Where's Waldo for Congressmen, I guess). It's really, really hard to choose what constitutes literacy when judgment - especially with something like music - is so subjective. At least with football, we can measure the value of a player somewhat objectively. The Beatles allegedly couldn't even read music, yet their simplistic note drippings are also considered the height of cultural relevancy these days. At some point, something transforms from the latest thing to culture-defining, and it's hard to understand why.

I play a lot of bar trivia, which is more focused on pop culture than J! and that frustrates me. Last year, they went on a Bond kick for a while - couldn't get through a game without a detailed question about some Bond movie and that wasn't fun at all. But I think any trivia production, from My Trivia Live here in Michigan all the way up to Jeopardy, struggles with the decision on how to define what is and what isn't a valid question. What's interesting, what's too easy and what's too - well - trivial?

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Re: Monday, December 4, 2017 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Bamaman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:15 pm

http://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireStory/ ... s-51532168

An article somewhat related to this game’s FJ.
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