Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Volante
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Volante »

This Is Kirk! wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:34 am I agree that just "Saint Patrick" should have been accepted as a short form of "Cathedral of St. Patrick" EXCEPT when the category is "Getting Possessive."
For this one, I don't believe Alex gave rules for the category. I recall once before that someone gave a response that met the clue criteria but didn't meet the theme of the category and was ruled wrong, but they were later credited as no explicit rules were given that the response had to meet the theme.

So I think they treat a category theme as a TOM rather than a rule unless it's explicitly defined (either obviously, e.g., "quotes", or by an Alex explanation.) SImilar to TOMs within clues: if the response doesn't match the TOM but is otherwise correct, it's correct.

Dunno about Tim Hortons tho. And with Trebek right there, too...
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by twelvefootboy »

Volante wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:46 pm
This Is Kirk! wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:34 am I agree that just "Saint Patrick" should have been accepted as a short form of "Cathedral of St. Patrick" EXCEPT when the category is "Getting Possessive."
For this one, I don't believe Alex gave rules for the category. I recall once before that someone gave a response that met the clue criteria but didn't meet the theme of the category and was ruled wrong, but they were later credited as no explicit rules were given that the response had to meet the theme.

So I think they treat a category theme as a TOM rather than a rule unless it's explicitly defined (either obviously, e.g., "quotes", or by an Alex explanation.) SImilar to TOMs within clues: if the response doesn't match the TOM but is otherwise correct, it's correct.

Dunno about Tim Hortons tho. And with Trebek right there, too...
I agree and have already stated (IMHO), it was a THEME heading of things related by the fact they contain a possessive. The alleged loophole for "Cathedral of St. Patrick" is silly. They wanted to know what object/thing/person fit the clue, not "are you skilled enough to add and pronounce an apostrophe s". That was the entire vibe of the game play here; although it would have been nice for AT to say "we'll accept that" in order to calm the nitpickers.
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by seaborgium »

I thought about posting that Roald Dahl wrote the screenplay for You Only Live Twice. Are there any HQ players here who wish I had done so before now?
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by MTGcollegestudent »

Twice in a week, FJ! is missed by one word. My for our, and once for twice. THAT kind of hurts to be in that position where you screwed up on something like that. Spelling would probably be the 1st worst thing you can screw up on the show. Second would be changing a syllable to make it incorrect, and this would be the 3rd worst thing to screw up on.

You would rarely see anything like this on the show, but at times, you would think to feel bad for the contestant that did something to get FJ! correct when they did something to it that made it incorrect.

What do you guys think of my theory of screw-ups to the show? Let me know which would be more towards #1 of screw-ups.

1) Misspelling something to make it incorrect

2) Changing/adding a syllable to make it incorrect

3) Changing a word to a title, person, book, etc. to make it incorrect
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by tiwonge »

TenPoundHammer wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:47 pm "Presenter" didn't sound like it narrowed down to any Microsoft program over any other to me. Maybe it's the Mac user in me.
Powerpoint has almost become a generic term for the type of presentation one does by using computerized slides.
TenPoundHammer wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:47 pm How does "Hippodrome" BMS to "Circus Maximus"?
A hippodrome is a generic name for a horse racing stadium. (Hippo- is from Greek for horse. See: Hippopotomus, or river horse.)

So it could refer to any horse-racing stadium, not just the one in Rome. (In fact, if you use it without any modifiers, I might think of the one in Constantinople first, because of the Nika riots that were started by horse races there. So, at best, it does not unambiguously refer to the Circus Maximus, and at worst, it might refer to a different stadium.)
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by TenPoundHammer »

tiwonge wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:26 pm
TenPoundHammer wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:47 pm "Presenter" didn't sound like it narrowed down to any Microsoft program over any other to me. Maybe it's the Mac user in me.
Powerpoint has almost become a generic term for the type of presentation one does by using computerized slides.
Again, probably one that just flew over my Macintosh-centric mind, because I have literally never used Powerpoint for anything.
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by This Is Kirk! »

TenPoundHammer wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:02 pm
tiwonge wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:26 pm
TenPoundHammer wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:47 pm "Presenter" didn't sound like it narrowed down to any Microsoft program over any other to me. Maybe it's the Mac user in me.
Powerpoint has almost become a generic term for the type of presentation one does by using computerized slides.
Again, probably one that just flew over my Macintosh-centric mind, because I have literally never used Powerpoint for anything.
That's because you're not in the corporate world. It's ubiquitous there.
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck »

OntarioQuizzer wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:15 am
IronNeck wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:50 am why doesn't David get a second chance because of a bad judging mistake?
It was completely consistent with past precedents that the show has used. It was in absolutely no way, shape, or form a mistake.
It is by definition a mistake, since they initially declared Gilbert's response incorrect, and later ruled it correct. Ergo, the initial ruling was a mistake.

As for "consistency", I think the other posters have done a fine job of showing that there is remarkably little of it when it comes to judging, from "Nehru" onward.
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by SenseiCAY »

Coryat: $27,800
R: 35
W: 4 (-$2,400)
DD: 3/3
FJ: :D
Ran: Doc Talk, Etymology, World Leaders
LT: Circus Maximus, Luzon

Best in awhile for me.
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by SenseiCAY »

MTGcollegestudent wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:41 pm Twice in a week, FJ! is missed by one word. My for our, and once for twice. THAT kind of hurts to be in that position where you screwed up on something like that. Spelling would probably be the 1st worst thing you can screw up on the show. Second would be changing a syllable to make it incorrect, and this would be the 3rd worst thing to screw up on.

You would rarely see anything like this on the show, but at times, you would think to feel bad for the contestant that did something to get FJ! correct when they did something to it that made it incorrect.

What do you guys think of my theory of screw-ups to the show? Let me know which would be more towards #1 of screw-ups.

1) Misspelling something to make it incorrect

2) Changing/adding a syllable to make it incorrect

3) Changing a word to a title, person, book, etc. to make it incorrect
Fortunately, as far as I can tell, neither screw-up affected the final winner - the leader got it and bet enough to cover the wager both times, it would seem.

I think that you have the correct order, most terrible to least terrible screw up, and I think it corresponds to how well you knew the answer.

In general, #1 seems like one of those things where you know the answer in your head (maybe even how to say it), and misspell it so badly that you change its pronunciation. You definitely "should have" gotten it.

Screw-up #2 could be one of those "I pretty much know the answer" situations where maybe you mispronounce it or switch two syllables. Either during college bowl (for which tiwonge, who I see above, was a teammate of mine) or HS quiz bowl, there was a question about the threshold at which a star would go supernova, and I rang in and said, "the Chandrakesar Limit," which is incorrect for the Chandrasekhar Llmit. After that, I never forgot how to say it, or who played a certain cop on "Super Troopers."

If you make screw-up #3, in my mind, you might have only vaguely known the answer.
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Peter the accountant »

A bit late to the party for this game.

R: 24, W: 3, costing 2800
Coryat: 15,200
FJ!: :oops:
LT: none today
DD: 0/3

My J! round today shows why you need more than just the number of right answers to judge how well you're doing. I got 10 right and 2 wrong - which isn't great, but it's not horrible, either. But my coryat was a mere 2000. I got all 6 $200 clues correct which is fine, but doesn't give you much of a score. One of the misses kept me from running the "dis" category. Left the word "flying" out of the distinguished cross, turning it into something that doesn't exist. Looked at the category, looked at the medal and stopped listening to the clue. So I missed the part about it being for an aerial battle. I need to remember to keep listening on the visual clues.

I couldn't come up with the FJ answer, but knew the whole time that I was going to be annoyed when I heard it. I wasn't disappointed. I should have got this one from the TOM, even if I didn't know the book or the exact release date of the movie. I suppose it doesn't help that this wasn't one of my favorite Bond films.

Since we're having fun (?) with judging consistency, I'm surprised no one has pointed out the relationship between hippodrome, Circus Maximus, ringworm and athlete's foot. One of each pair is a more generic term, one is a more specific term. In each case, a contestant gave the more generic term when the writers were looking for the more specific term. One was BMS'd, one was not. One generic term was later determined to be correct, one was not.

Curious.
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by jeff6286 »

Volante wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:46 pm
This Is Kirk! wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:34 am I agree that just "Saint Patrick" should have been accepted as a short form of "Cathedral of St. Patrick" EXCEPT when the category is "Getting Possessive."
For this one, I don't believe Alex gave rules for the category. I recall once before that someone gave a response that met the clue criteria but didn't meet the theme of the category and was ruled wrong, but they were later credited as no explicit rules were given that the response had to meet the theme.

So I think they treat a category theme as a TOM rather than a rule unless it's explicitly defined (either obviously, e.g., "quotes", or by an Alex explanation.) SImilar to TOMs within clues: if the response doesn't match the TOM but is otherwise correct, it's correct.

Dunno about Tim Hortons tho. And with Trebek right there, too...
The name of the restaurant is Tim Hortons, not Tim
Horton’s. If the founders of the place didn’t feel the need to include the apostrophe to make it clear that the title is a possessive, I don’t think the contestant should be required to. Given the inclusion in the category of an answer that doesn’t have ‘s, I think it would be weird to neg St. Patrick for excluding it as well.

If you want to simply say that Tim Horton is not the name of the chain, I think that leads to a very slippery slope where you’d expect that they’re going to neg people if they say Krogers or Wal marts, etc. Some of those things can be grinding to the ear but without a doubt there are a lot of them in common usage and I don’t know that there is any precedent for the show being this strict.
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

jeff6286 wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:23 pm If you want to simply say that Tim Horton is not the name of the chain, I think that leads to a very slippery slope where you’d expect that they’re going to neg people if they say Krogers or Wal marts, etc. Some of those things can be grinding to the ear but without a doubt there are a lot of them in common usage and I don’t know that there is any precedent for the show being this strict.
I can't think of a precedent either way. I'd expect them to neg Wal-marts, and probably Krogers. If they didn't, I'd assume they were taking those not as possessives but as plurals. And they don't penalize you for plural responses when the clue calls for singular as long as the response meets all the other conditions of the clue. E.g. if the category is ENDS IN "OGER" or the clue specifies a "six-letter grocery store chain," then Krogers gets the buzz. But if the clue is "This grocery chain's house brand is labeled Private Selection," I guess I can see accepting "What are Krogers?" Once I talk myself into that, I can go a step further and accept the bad grammar, "What is Krogers?" So maybe I'm grudgingly ok with it after all.

It's harder to imagine the same rationale in the other direction. "Walgreen," for example, is not the singular of "Walgreens." It's just wrong. I'd put "Tim Horton" in the same category.
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by This Is Kirk! »

jeff6286 wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:23 pm If you want to simply say that Tim Horton is not the name of the chain, I think that leads to a very slippery slope where you’d expect that they’re going to neg people if they say Krogers or Wal marts, etc. Some of those things can be grinding to the ear but without a doubt there are a lot of them in common usage and I don’t know that there is any precedent for the show being this strict.
So you think they'd accept a response of "McDonald" for the fast food restaurant? I don't think they would.

Also, as previously mentioned the reason for removing the apostrophe from Tim Horton's was to avoid running afoul of Canada's bilingual signage law.
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by dhkendall »

TenPoundHammer wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:02 pm
tiwonge wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:26 pm
TenPoundHammer wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:47 pm "Presenter" didn't sound like it narrowed down to any Microsoft program over any other to me. Maybe it's the Mac user in me.
Powerpoint has almost become a generic term for the type of presentation one does by using computerized slides.
Again, probably one that just flew over my Macintosh-centric mind, because I have literally never used Powerpoint for anything.
I have a Mac. And PowerPoint. (Use it all the time for Toastmasters presentations). They make Mac versions of pretty much any major program (except IE).
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by dhkendall »

This Is Kirk! wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:05 pm
jeff6286 wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:23 pm If you want to simply say that Tim Horton is not the name of the chain, I think that leads to a very slippery slope where you’d expect that they’re going to neg people if they say Krogers or Wal marts, etc. Some of those things can be grinding to the ear but without a doubt there are a lot of them in common usage and I don’t know that there is any precedent for the show being this strict.
So you think they'd accept a response of "McDonald" for the fast food restaurant? I don't think they would.

Also, as previously mentioned the reason for removing the apostrophe from Tim Horton's was to avoid running afoul of Canada's bilingual signage law.
Nit: *Quebecs* bilingual signage law. The rest of Canada is thankfully more sensible. (However someone raised a point that McDonald’s is still McDonald’s in La Belle Province. Perhaps they get away with it and Tim’s doesn’t because McD’s is foreign owned and Timmie’s isn’t.)
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by NoWhammies10 »

Tim Hortons gets away with it because the official corporate name has no apostrophe. Not sure why McDonald's gets away with it (perhaps great lobbying powers?).
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by econgator »

NoWhammies10 wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:07 am Tim Hortons gets away with it because the official corporate name has no apostrophe. Not sure why McDonald's gets away with it (perhaps great lobbying powers?).
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/05/04 ... 43278.html

"There will, however, be exceptions. Any businesses with family names, such as Tim Hortons or McDonald's, will not have to change their signs."
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Re: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Kwing_Lan_Au_Yeung »

It’s interesting that debate about this episode was completely devoid of any discussion about the $1,000 clue in the World Leaders category:
China: X Marked the spot from the late 1970s into the '90s
Collins answered ‘Xiaoping’, Alex responded, ‘Yes, Deng Xiaoping’, and the champion was awarded a correct response.

One problem: Deng Xiaoping isn’t westernized, so the name uses the Chinese convention of surname followed by given name. So the way that particular exchange played out would’ve been akin to the contestant answering ‘Jimmy’ and Alex responding with ‘Yes, Jimmy Carter’ had the former POTUS been the correct answer.

I’m aware that the clue is misleading because it hints at a name starting with ‘X’ but the contestants gave the surnames of the other leaders in all the other responses. Also, have the judges accepted in the past the given names of other historical figures? I don’t mean people like Dante or Michelangelo who were known by their given names. I'm wondering if ‘Tse Tung’ has ever been accepted as correct when referring to Mao Tse Tung, if ‘Yun Fat’ (or worse yet, just ‘Fat’) was ever allowed for Chow Yun Fat, etc.

In case anyone’s wondering, my name is westernized: Kwing Lan is my given name and Au Yeung is my family name.
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