Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck »

OntarioQuizzer wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:42 pm
IronNeck wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:12 pm Is it just me, or did Adrianne say "A Pilgrim's Progress"? If so, she should have been negged. There is plenty of precedent for getting articles on book titles wrong.
Leading articles ("The" in this case) can be added or dropped with impunity unless it creates ambiguity with another work (which it doesn't).

And "commonly shortened titles" are also accepted. Like we want to hear the full titles of Daniel Defoe's works...
Hmmm...I recall a College Jeopardy game where they negged someone for a wrong article without any possible ambiguity, but I will have to look it up to be certain.
tiwonge wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:45 pm Thought that it was easy enough to determine the etymology of Novosibirsk (Novo (new) + sibirsk (sounds like Siberia)) without the hint, but seeing comments here, I guess it's good that they included it.

I got The Red and the Black, but I thought it was hard for a top box clue. Did others get it? I don't know how easy it is to puzzle it out if you've never heard of the book.
I mean, it's a 19th century classic by a famous writer. But yes, by Jeopardy literature standards, it was probably more difficult than most top row clues.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by zerobandwidth »

This FJ! wasn't a geography clue. Unless you knew Russian (a good skill to have these days, it seems), it wasn't even a pure etymology clue. Instead, it was a clue about Jeopardy clues — as Mark stated, the entire clue became a set of tease-out instructions. As long as the contestant has faith that "maybe 'novo' → 'new' works from Russian like it does in Latin" and "'sibirsk' kind of sounds like Siberia" then a correct guess can be constructed. This would be a great FJ! for one of those LL-style polls:
  • I've heard of New Siberia City, so this became a geography clue.
  • I know Russian and was able to translate it for a guess.
  • I know enough other languages to guess "novo" → "new" and "sibirsk" kind of sounds like Siberia.
  • I got to the correct response some other way.
  • I didn't get it.
Specifically, I'd be interested in comparing the people who actually "knew" vs. those who followed their noses down the tease-out path. I am certainly among the latter.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

I don't know German, but "battle" is the first translation for Kampf in the Cambridge German-English dictionary. An abridged English translation of Mein Kampf was published in 1933 as My Struggle in England, but My Battle in America. The Norwegian, Min Kamp can also be translated as "my battle" or "my fight" as well as "my struggle." I'm surprised this neg wasn't reversed.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

Here's the full text of the color DD: BROKEN DOWN INTO HUE, SATURATION & BRIGHTNESS, IT CAN BE DEFINED AS THE SENSATION FELT AS WAVES OF LIGHT HIT THE RETINA.

I got it because "hue, saturation & brightness" point to color. But the second half of the clue is a disaster.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by alietr »

twelvefootboy wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:34 am
opusthepenguin wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:41 pm Was anyone else surprised by the definition of "color" as a "sensation felt as waves of light hit the retina"? I thought it generally took LSD or something similar before you could actually feel the colors hit your eyeballs.
This clue boggled me. I finally just said "vision", but thought maybe it should be "eyesight". The five senses include "sight". If the penguin has the wording correct (forgive any shadow of doubt :cry: ), there is nothing to indicate the correct response should be "color". If it said cone cells, OK.
I said 'sight' (after shrugging with a "what the heck do they want here" gesture). With what I can remember of the clue, I don't see anything wrong with that response.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by AndyTheQuizzer »

IronNeck wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:31 am Hmmm...I recall a College Jeopardy game where they negged someone for a wrong article without any possible ambiguity, but I will have to look it up to be certain.
Leading articles are different from internal articles. The situation you're referring to (Sarah Dubnik, QF4 in the 2016 College Tournament) was an insertion of an extra internal article, which does make a response incorrect.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by AndyTheQuizzer »

opusthepenguin wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:48 am I don't know German, but "battle" is the first translation for Kampf in the Cambridge German-English dictionary. An abridged English translation of Mein Kampf was published in 1933 as My Struggle in England, but My Battle in America. The Norwegian, Min Kamp can also be translated as "my battle" or "my fight" as well as "my struggle." I'm surprised this neg wasn't reversed.
Mein Kampf has nothing to do at all with anything here.

It's entirely about Min Kamp, and Min Kamp has only been translated as "My Struggle".
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by AndyTheQuizzer »

opusthepenguin wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:16 am Here's the full text of the color DD: BROKEN DOWN INTO HUE, SATURATION & BRIGHTNESS, IT CAN BE DEFINED AS THE SENSATION FELT AS WAVES OF LIGHT HIT THE RETINA.

I got it because "hue, saturation & brightness" point to color. But the second half of the clue is a disaster.
This, precisely. "Hue, Saturation, Brightness" is what pins this solely to color.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by twelvefootboy »

OntarioQuizzer wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:48 am
opusthepenguin wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:16 am Here's the full text of the color DD: BROKEN DOWN INTO HUE, SATURATION & BRIGHTNESS, IT CAN BE DEFINED AS THE SENSATION FELT AS WAVES OF LIGHT HIT THE RETINA.

I got it because "hue, saturation & brightness" point to color. But the second half of the clue is a disaster.
This, precisely. "Hue, Saturation, Brightness" is what pins this solely to color.
Agreed. I focused (pun intended) on the second half and certainly dislike the use of "felt", since that is one of the five senses. I think they might have to take "vision" or "sight" upon review. Dunno if white light is a null value for Hue and saturation. "Produced" would have been better than "felt", but still a hot mess of a clue.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

OntarioQuizzer wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:47 am
opusthepenguin wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:48 am I don't know German, but "battle" is the first translation for Kampf in the Cambridge German-English dictionary. An abridged English translation of Mein Kampf was published in 1933 as My Struggle in England, but My Battle in America. The Norwegian, Min Kamp can also be translated as "my battle" or "my fight" as well as "my struggle." I'm surprised this neg wasn't reversed.
Mein Kampf has nothing to do at all with anything here.

It's entirely about Min Kamp, and Min Kamp has only been translated as "My Struggle".
Perhaps, but that's not the only way it can be translated. It can also legitimately be translated as "My Battle."

And while I agree that Mein Kampf is not strictly relevant, I don't think it's exactly irrelevant. It's at least relevant in explaining why someone would guess "My Battle." How many boardies have heard of Min Kamp? On its own, its not Jeopardy!-level knowledge. Ask for the author or even the language and you'll get a stand-and-stare. The way in for most people is to recognize its similarity to the German title and assume they mean the same thing. Fortunately, they do--My Struggle, or My Battle. Otherwise the clue is just deceptive and deliberate negbait.
Last edited by opusthepenguin on Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Woppy T »

zerobandwidth wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:04 am This FJ! wasn't a geography clue. Unless you knew Russian (a good skill to have these days, it seems), it wasn't even a pure etymology clue. Instead, it was a clue about Jeopardy clues — as Mark stated, the entire clue became a set of tease-out instructions. As long as the contestant has faith that "maybe 'novo' → 'new' works from Russian like it does in Latin" and "'sibirsk' kind of sounds like Siberia" then a correct guess can be constructed. This would be a great FJ! for one of those LL-style polls:
  • I've heard of New Siberia City, so this became a geography clue.
  • I know Russian and was able to translate it for a guess.
  • I know enough other languages to guess "novo" → "new" and "sibirsk" kind of sounds like Siberia.
  • I got to the correct response some other way.
  • I didn't get it.
Specifically, I'd be interested in comparing the people who actually "knew" vs. those who followed their noses down the tease-out path. I am certainly among the latter.
Me too. "Novo" plus "recent" gave me "new," and "sibirsk" just sounded like "Siberia" to me. The only question I had was whether to say "New Siberia" or "New Siberia City." I added the "city."
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

Woppy T wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:11 am Me too. "Novo" plus "recent" gave me "new," and "sibirsk" just sounded like "Siberia" to me. The only question I had was whether to say "New Siberia" or "New Siberia City." I added the "city."
I wish one of the contestants had done the same, just so we'd know for sure that it would be accepted. I left "city" out, but I was nervous about it.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by John Boy »

MarkBarrett wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:08 pm
The FJ! clue gave instructions for what to do. I followed step 1 and I followed step 2. Done. The contestants did the same, so advantage leader.
Yeah, it was kind of like that.

Anyone who didn't suss this out should be sent to Novosibirsk.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by This Is Kirk! »

opusthepenguin wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:04 am
OntarioQuizzer wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:47 am
opusthepenguin wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:48 am I don't know German, but "battle" is the first translation for Kampf in the Cambridge German-English dictionary. An abridged English translation of Mein Kampf was published in 1933 as My Struggle in England, but My Battle in America. The Norwegian, Min Kamp can also be translated as "my battle" or "my fight" as well as "my struggle." I'm surprised this neg wasn't reversed.
Mein Kampf has nothing to do at all with anything here.

It's entirely about Min Kamp, and Min Kamp has only been translated as "My Struggle".
Perhaps, but that's not the only way it can be translated. It can also legitimately be translated as "My Battle."

And while I agree that Mein Kampf is not strictly relevant, I don't think it's exactly irrelevant. It's at least relevant in explaining why someone would guess "My Battle." How many boardies have heard of Min Kamp? On its own, its not Jeopardy!-level knowledge. Ask for the author or even the language and you'll get a stand-and-stare. The way in for most people is to recognize its similarity to the German title and assume they mean the same thing. Fortunately, they do--My Struggle, or My Battle. Otherwise the clue is just deceptive and deliberate negbait.
I agree. Andy is wrong that 'Mein Kampf' is irrelevant. I've never heard of 'Min Kampf' but I've obviously heard of 'Mein Kampf' and had always heard it translated as "My Struggle." Based on that I assumed the Norwegian book would have the same translation. But I think if Kamp can also be translated as Battle "My Battle" should be acceptable and it shouldn't really matter whether it actually has been translated as that for an English language version of the book.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Elijah Baley »

opusthepenguin wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:14 am
Woppy T wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:11 am Me too. "Novo" plus "recent" gave me "new," and "sibirsk" just sounded like "Siberia" to me. The only question I had was whether to say "New Siberia" or "New Siberia City." I added the "city."
I wish one of the contestants had done the same, just so we'd know for sure that it would be accepted. I left "city" out, but I was nervous about it.
I think you were right to leave out "city" but it would have been interesting to see how they handled "New Siberian City" because I don't think that's particularly accurate, but it was also an incredibly poorly written clue. I still don't know what they meant by putting quotes around city - as if it wasn't really a city or city was supposed to be part of the response or what?

There are always going to be unexpected ambiguities in clues, but it seems like the writers (and judges) have been increasingly lax and sloppy lately, including things that they could clear up with a 10 second google search.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by This Is Kirk! »

Elijah Baley wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:26 pm I still don't know what they meant by putting quotes around city - as if it wasn't really a city or city was supposed to be part of the response or what?
I think the intent was that they only needed the "New Siberia" part for a response and "City" could be left out. They were looking for "this 'city'" so clearly "City" wasn't required in the answer.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Woof »

zerobandwidth wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:04 am This FJ! wasn't a geography clue. Unless you knew Russian (a good skill to have these days, it seems), it wasn't even a pure etymology clue. Instead, it was a clue about Jeopardy clues — as Mark stated, the entire clue became a set of tease-out instructions. As long as the contestant has faith that "maybe 'novo' → 'new' works from Russian like it does in Latin" and "'sibirsk' kind of sounds like Siberia" then a correct guess can be constructed. This would be a great FJ! for one of those LL-style polls:
  • I've heard of New Siberia City, so this became a geography clue.
  • I know Russian and was able to translate it for a guess.
  • I know enough other languages to guess "novo" → "new" and "sibirsk" kind of sounds like Siberia.
  • I got to the correct response some other way.
  • I didn't get it.
Specifically, I'd be interested in comparing the people who actually "knew" vs. those who followed their noses down the tease-out path. I am certainly among the latter.
I'd be one of those people caught in between. I know where Novosibirsk is, so I already was poised to place it in Siberia. That being said, I did tease out the meaning the way you suggest.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

This Is Kirk! wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:49 am I've obviously heard of 'Mein Kampf' and had always heard it translated as "My Struggle."
Same here, so the "battle" guess initially puzzled me. But when I found that the first US edition had been published under the title, "My Battle," that de-puzzled me. It may not be coincidence that the oldest contestant made that guess. (Not saying he was aware or even around in 1933, of course!)
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by seaborgium »

It's been just over a year since Bobby Goldstein's negged "Twenty Thousand Leagues Beneath the Sea" has been mentioned.
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Re: Monday, January 22, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Elijah Baley »

This Is Kirk! wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:34 pm
Elijah Baley wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:26 pm I still don't know what they meant by putting quotes around city - as if it wasn't really a city or city was supposed to be part of the response or what?
I think the intent was that they only needed the "New Siberia" part for a response and "City" could be left out. They were looking for "this 'city'" so clearly "City" wasn't required in the answer.
Except "City" isn't part of the name - it's just Novosibirsk. The clue should have simply been: "Novosibirsk, the 3rd-largest city in Russia, translates as this: the 1st word for its more recent founding, the 2nd for its location."

Russian cities sometimes include "city" or "town" as part of the name (Volgagrad or Nihzy Novogorod, e.g.) - and like NYC or KC - but this isn't one of them. At least as far as I know from studying Russian some 40 years ago now so I could be all wet. :shock:

At best, I guess any city can be formally known as "City of ______" but again, it just seems that it added an unnecessary element to the clue.
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