Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

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This Is Kirk!
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by This Is Kirk! »

IronNeck wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 10:19 am
This Is Kirk! wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 9:50 am My evidence is that I didn't know it, so I doubt the average person does.
That's a poor metric to use. I average over $30,000 Coryat these days, but there are absolutely clues I miss that many average people would get. Everyone has blind spots. And both myself and IronHorse have mentioned that our significant others got this clue despite having no interest in trivia.

Robin Hood is something that many are familiar with.
This Is Kirk! wrote: The only solution is a poll question (Mark?). Not to say the posters here are average...
This is one instance where a poll would be completely useless. Everyone here is into trivia.
It's hard to believe there wouldn't be some correlation between how many "trivia people" know something versus how many "average people" would know it.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by LucarioSnooperVixey »

45 R
DD: 3/3
FJ: :mrgreen:
LT: Athens, "The Butler Did It", Robert DeNiro, Leon Trotsky, The Moonstone, John Brown, Sapsucker, World War II, John
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by AFRET CMS »

MarkBarrett wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 12:01 pm TAKE THE CATEGORY IN ORDER was a bust with the players not completing it, not taking the three clues that were seen consecutively and having an alternative correct response.

I cannot figure out the pattern of the category as to how it would finish:
Spoiler
Pep to Pepper Mill to Miller High Life to ? Lifer? The J!6 was Life360
My wife and I spent a few minutes at dinner speculating about the bottom clues until we wound up trying to out-silly each other:

High Life --> Life Guard --> Guard Duty
High Life --> Lifeline --> Lineup
High Life --> Life Buoy --> Buoy George
High Life --> Life without parole --> Parole over and play dead

..... and it devolved even further from there.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Bamaman »

I knew Richard I and John were brothers from reading about the British monarchy. My only exposure to Robin Hood was the Disney movie but that was about 45 years ago and I couldn’t tell you anything about it.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by BigDaddyMatty »

IronNeck wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 2:55 am
This Is Kirk! wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 1:03 am
IronNeck wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 12:25 am
BigDaddyMatty wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 12:05 am
IronNeck wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 10:45 pm and King John Triple Stumpers
Not a chance.
My girlfriend, who gets maybe 5 clues correct per show, answered that one instantly. "EVERYONE knows that King John is Richard's brother from the Robin Hood story!" she told me.

So yes, the average person would have had a good shot at it.
I'm with Matty on this. No way the average person knows that.
I just gave you an example of an average person with no interest in trivia who got it easily. As well as her reasoning. Ignoring the evidence and restating the claim is not convincing.
I'll admit to a blind spot here. I've never seen any of the various Robin Hood movies--my wife loves the Disney version, but I was exhausted and promptly conked out the one time she tried to share it with me--so I missed that there is a particular pop culture basis for the average person to know the answer to that question.

I just polled my wife and mother-in-law. Working together, they were able to come up with the answer in about 10-15 seconds, but neither one of them would have gotten it on her own. Mom made the Robin Hood connection but couldn't come up with the brother's name, while my wife didn't make the connection but came up with Prince John once prompted. My guess is that a random, on-the-street sort of poll, giving only five seconds to respond--we were talking about picking up LT, after all--would produce a get rate of less than 10%.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

This Is Kirk! wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 11:11 am
IronNeck wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 10:19 am This is one instance where a poll would be completely useless. Everyone here is into trivia.
It's hard to believe there wouldn't be some correlation between how many "trivia people" know something versus how many "average people" would know it.
Could depend on the results. If a bunch of trivia buffs get this one right, that might not say much about whether the average person would. If a bunch of trivia buffs get it WRONG (say, if it polls below 40%) that would be more interesting. One could construct an a fortiori argument that the average person is, if anything, less likely to get this one right. That argument wouldn't work as well in the realm of pop culture. But for this clue, I think it would be valid.

As a contradictory anecdote to IronNeck, I showed the clue to my 22-year-old daughter. She's not a trivia buff and, for the purposes of this discussion, may be placed in the "average" column. She said she had no idea. She also says she has seen the Disney version of Robin Hood roughly a "gajillion" times.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by mujason »

Patrick Stewart has a cameo as King Richard in "Robin Hood: Men in Tights."
-Jason
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by squarekara »

Prince John wasn't the only one to grasp at the crown in Richard's absence.
Spoiler
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by davey »

Very annoying that the players ignored the Take the Category in Order advice and didn't get through it. Weren't they curious?
Also annoying was Alex's inadequate intro to Mind Your "P"x & "Q"s - he said each response "will begin with a p or a q, but not necessarily in that order," then seemed peeved when Josh didn't realize this meant a two-word response beginning with p and q... :roll:
OK, I blanked on King John, but I did get The Admirable Crichton, which no one else in the thread has mentioned, so i count that a forward move on my "average"/"into trivia" continuum...
But then two steps back for blanking on the Deimos part of "Phobos and Deimos"... :twisted:
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck »

opusthepenguin wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 10:23 am No, no. See, HIS anecdote is data. It's statistically significant and proves his point. YOUR anecdote is proof that you're in the minority.
His anecdote is about himself, who is hardly the average person, ergo irrelevant. My anecdote is about my girlfriend, who gets about 5 questions correct per show, and IronHorse's anecdote was about his wife, who isn't into trivia, ergo relevant.

Nice ankle-biting though, penguin.

Anyways, there are a fair number of average people (or even trivia buffs, as the show yesterday proved) who would miss the de Niro clue, too. But they would have a good shot at it, which is the point. A lot of non-trivia people are familiar with Robin Hood due to the many films, books, etc.
BigDaddyMatty wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 1:45 pm My guess is that a random, on-the-street sort of poll, giving only five seconds to respond--we were talking about picking up LT, after all--would produce a get rate of less than 10%.
Not a chance.
opusthepenguin wrote:As a contradictory anecdote to IronNeck, I showed the clue to my 22-year-old daughter. She's not a trivia buff and, for the purposes of this discussion, may be placed in the "average" column. She said she had no idea. She also says she has seen the Disney version of Robin Hood roughly a "gajillion" times.
Most people who watch a movie a "gajillion times" remember the name of the main villain.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

IronNeck wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 7:59 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:As a contradictory anecdote to IronNeck, I showed the clue to my 22-year-old daughter. She's not a trivia buff and, for the purposes of this discussion, may be placed in the "average" column. She said she had no idea. She also says she has seen the Disney version of Robin Hood roughly a "gajillion" times.
Most people who watch a movie a "gajillion times" remember the name of the main villain.
Yep. Prince John (aka PJ). No problem there. This knowledge did not turn into an ability to parse and solve the clue in 5 seconds. You can't just restate your claim. You have to deal with the evidence. Your scientific sample size of one (which you chose to call "evidence") has been refuted by a data set of identical size and reliability. I wouldn't be foolish enough to generalize from that. But you've got twice the evidence you had when you started, so go ahead.

Your move Mr. Statistics.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck »

opusthepenguin wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 8:14 pm
IronNeck wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 7:59 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:As a contradictory anecdote to IronNeck, I showed the clue to my 22-year-old daughter. She's not a trivia buff and, for the purposes of this discussion, may be placed in the "average" column. She said she had no idea. She also says she has seen the Disney version of Robin Hood roughly a "gajillion" times.
Most people who watch a movie a "gajillion times" remember the name of the main villain.
Yep. Prince John (aka PJ). No problem there. This knowledge did not turn into an ability to parse and solve the clue in 5 seconds.
In other words, she had all the necessary knowledge to solve the clue and only missed it because of her complete lack of familiarity with Jeopardy wording. And this is supposed to contradict the claim that a non-trivia person would have a good chance of getting it?

Haha, okay.
opusthepenguin wrote:You can't just restate your claim. You have to deal with the evidence. Your scientific sample size of one (which you chose to call "evidence") had been refuted by a data set of identical size and reliability.
The sample size is two. You keep conveniently ignoring IronHorse's post. So we're presently 2/3 for non-trivia people, with the sole miss being confusion by the wording, not a lack of information.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by BigDaddyMatty »

IronNeck wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 8:22 pm
opusthepenguin wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 8:14 pm
IronNeck wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 7:59 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:As a contradictory anecdote to IronNeck, I showed the clue to my 22-year-old daughter. She's not a trivia buff and, for the purposes of this discussion, may be placed in the "average" column. She said she had no idea. She also says she has seen the Disney version of Robin Hood roughly a "gajillion" times.
Most people who watch a movie a "gajillion times" remember the name of the main villain.
Yep. Prince John (aka PJ). No problem there. This knowledge did not turn into an ability to parse and solve the clue in 5 seconds.
In other words, she had all the necessary knowledge to solve the clue and only missed it because of her complete lack of familiarity with Jeopardy wording. And this is supposed to contradict the claim that a non-trivia person would have a good chance of getting it?

Haha, okay.
She didn't get it right. That's what matters. The rest is irrelevant.
IronNeck wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 8:22 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:You can't just restate your claim. You have to deal with the evidence. Your scientific sample size of one (which you chose to call "evidence") had been refuted by a data set of identical size and reliability.
The sample size is two. You keep conveniently ignoring IronHorse's post. So we're presently 2/3 for non-trivia people, with the sole miss being confusion by the wording, not a lack of information.
We're actually 2/5, as neither of the two people I asked were able to get it on their own. And it should be pointed out that, so far, the only people polled are those we know to be quite familiar with the story of Robin Hood. This would be true of far less than 100% of the general public.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck »

BigDaddyMatty wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 12:53 am She didn't get it right. That's what matters. The rest is irrelevant.
It's highly relevant. If she had watched a few weeks' worth of shows to be familiar with the phrasing and parsing out information she likely would have gotten it.

Moreover, most non-trivia folks simply don't have the knowledge to answer most Jeopardy questions. That's not the case here.

For instance, my girlfriend missed the $200 in "I Hear Voices" because she didn't hone in on the "The force will always be" TOM, not because of any failure of knowledge. Meanwhile, she is not getting "What is the Maginot Line?" no matter how many times I read it to her. Clearly though, these two cases aren't the same.
BigDaddyMatty wrote: We're actually 2/5, as neither of the two people I asked were able to get it on their own.
Per your assumption. You also mention that they DID get the question correct when they heard it together.
BigDaddyMatty wrote:This would be true of far less than 100% of the general public.
I said "good shot at" and "probably", which is not "100%". The only one here who put a specific number on it is you, claiming "less than 10%" of average people would get that clue. That's ridiculous, as way more people know Robin Hood well enough to get it.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by BigDaddyMatty »

IronNeck wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 2:07 am
BigDaddyMatty wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 12:53 am She didn't get it right. That's what matters. The rest is irrelevant.
It's highly relevant. If she had watched a few weeks' worth of shows to be familiar with the phrasing and parsing out information she likely would have gotten it.

Moreover, most non-trivia folks simply don't have the knowledge to answer most Jeopardy questions. That's not the case here.

For instance, my girlfriend missed the $200 in "I Hear Voices" because she didn't hone in on the "The force will always be" TOM, not because of any failure of knowledge. Meanwhile, she is not getting "What is the Maginot Line?" no matter how many times I read it to her. Clearly though, these two cases aren't the same.
This whole discussion started with my response to the following statement:
IronNeck wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 10:45 pm The average person on the street would probably have gotten the . . . King John Triple Stumper
Presumably, you meant that the average person on the street would have a >50% chance of coming up with this response in the amount of time that is required for J! responses, and without further clues or contextualization. If that is not what you meant, you are free to clarify. If that is what you meant, I think you overstate the get rate among non-trivia, non-J!-watching people by about an order of magnitude.

IronNeck wrote:
BigDaddyMatty wrote: We're actually 2/5, as neither of the two people I asked were able to get it on their own.
Per your assumption. You also mention that they DID get the question correct when they heard it together.
I directly observed that neither of them came up with the correct response in anywhere near J! time, which, again, is all that matters for the purposes of evaluating your claim. I can further speculate with a fair amount of certainty that either of the two of them might have come up with the missing half of the puzzle on her own, but it would likely have taken several minutes.

IronNeck wrote:
BigDaddyMatty wrote:This would be true of far less than 100% of the general public.
I said "good shot at" and "probably", which is not "100%". The only one here who put a specific number on it is you, claiming "less than 10%" of average people would get that clue. That's ridiculous, as way more people know Robin Hood well enough to get it.
You missed my point. In our small sample, only 40% of those surveyed got the correct response. Of those, 100% got the correct response specifically because of a high level of familiarity with the Robin Hood story. If we are assuming--I think we all agree on this point--that virtually any average person who correctly solves this clue does so via the Robin Hood connection, then the expected get rate on this clue should be:
(% of average people familiar with the Robin Hood story who recall that John was Richard I's brother) X (% of average people who are familiar with the Robin Hood story)
Even if the first number is as high as 40%, the fact that the second number is guaranteed to be well south of 100% means that the percentage of average people we could expect to pick up this piece of LT is not very high.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by seaborgium »

IronNeck wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 2:07 am
BigDaddyMatty wrote:This would be true of far less than 100% of the general public.
I said "good shot at" and "probably", which is not "100%". The only one here who put a specific number on it is you, claiming "less than 10%" of average people would get that clue. That's ridiculous, as way more people know Robin Hood well enough to get it.
Don't you miss clues that you were perfectly well equipped to get? I know I do. I'm another who got John because I thought of the Robin Hood connection, but I imagine many "not contestant material" people (as well as some former and future contestants, even) who are familiar with the Robin Hood story simply wouldn't think to cross-reference the information in the clue with that knowledge. Knowing Robin Hood well enough to get it is only half the battle; one also has to realize that the tangential thing one knows is enough to pick apart the clue that one otherwise doesn't know.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

Took an informal poll at church today on the King John clue. 2 people got it, 9 didn't. I conducted the poll by showing them a screenshot of the clue on my phone and telling them the category was HISTORICAL FICTION. I gave everyone at least 15 seconds to parse the clue before allowing them to give up. After that, I let them take as much more time as they wanted. One of them did make a correct guess after the 30 second mark, but I decided to count that as a miss. If anyone wants to move him to the get column, that's fine.

One of the 2 that got it in under 15 seconds is into English history. I expected him to get it and made sure to include him in the poll. I didn't want to be accused of cooking the books. Even though he's into English history, he admitted that the Disney Robin Hood movie--his favorite Disney movie--was the path he took to the correct response. The other person who got it is a young lady who's headed to the University of Michigan in the Fall on a full scholarship. She's thinking of specializing in neuroscience. The Disney Robin Hood movie was also her way in.

Of those who didn't get it, all had seen some version of a Robin Hood movie. Almost all were familiar with the Disney version. After being reminded of that movie, several started singing "Little John and Robin Hood walkin' through the forest, pickin' up the field mice and boppin' 'em on the head". (Wait. That's not right. Anyway, they knew the song.)

My wife reminded me that she hadn't gotten the clue right when we were watching. She's not really a trivia buff, so I think her data point counts as well. She's almost as familiar with the Disney Robin Hood movie as our daughter is. Adding those two in, that's 11 who didn't get the clue right and only 2 who did.

These results do not support the hypothesis that knowing the Disney Robin Hood movie makes it likely that one will know the correct response to the clue.

Everyone I polled today is a college graduate except for one who is still in college and the high school grad mentioned above who got the clue right. My wife is a college grad and our daughter has taken some Junior College classes. As a whole this group's education level is very much above average. I don't think we could expect such high results (2 right, 11 not) if I had polled people outside a Wal*Mart. Outside a Costco, maybe I'd have better luck, but I doubt the average would go over 30%. I'm inclined to agree with the earlier post that said fewer than 10% of "average" people would get this clue correct.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by twelvefootboy »

I missed the episode in question, but I'm on the side of the ignorant college grads that the Penguin knows. (I said ignorant, not stupid:). I don't have the Disney Robin Hood movie in my C.V. for what that's worth.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by IronNeck »

opusthepenguin wrote: Sun May 27, 2018 4:21 pm Post
-Conducts an informal poll that finds 2/11 or 3/11 got that clue, so either 18% or 27%.
-Concludes that the percentage of average people who get the clue should be....less than 10%.

Personally, I conclude that there is at least a 40% chance the penguin should retake remedial arithmetic.
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Re: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by seaborgium »

IronNeck wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 12:33 am
opusthepenguin wrote: Sun May 27, 2018 4:21 pm Post
-Conducts an informal poll that finds 2/11 or 3/11 got that clue, so either 18% or 27%.
-Concludes that the percentage of average people who get the clue should be....less than 10%.

Personally, I conclude that there is at least a 40% chance the penguin should retake remedial arithmetic.
-Ignores last paragraph of post preceding final sentence
-Concludes that someone else should go back and try something again
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