Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

This is where all of the games are discussed.

Moderators: alietr, dhkendall, trainman, econgator

bbird
Valued Contributor
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:32 pm

Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by bbird » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:15 am

I feel if Truman had been the correct response, the clue would have read "sent a congratulatory telegram, but later told reporters..." The choice of the word "then" implies to me that the comment to reporters happened immediately after the sending of the telegram.

User avatar
opusthepenguin
The Best Darn Penguin on the Whole JBoard
Posts: 5998
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:33 pm
Location: Shawnee, KS
Contact:

Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:32 am

Elijah Baley wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:04 am
opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:28 pm
Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:47 pm
No argument from me. But, I'm not saying that there's nothing that would lead to Dewey; instead, nothing jumps out that points definitively to him, as Alex implied. Unless you have pretty specific knowledge - like the fact that November 3 was the day after the election - either response seems pretty reasonable.
On November 3, 1948 he sent a congratulatory telegram, then told reporters, “I was just as surprised as you”

I don't think the clue makes sense unless the telegram and the comment to reporters BOTH happened after the "surprise". Given that, Alex's comment was exactly right. Truman wouldn't be the one sending the congratulatory telegram.
Yes, the clue makes sense in another way: Truman sees early results that show Dewey winning, in accordance with conventional wisdom. He sends a congratulatory telegram. Short time later, results show Truman won so he tells reporters, "I'm just as surprised as you."
We'll have to agree to disagree here. I see your point but I don't think the word "then" can bear that kind of weight. I think it would be deceptive for the clue to be written the way it is to describe the situation you envision. I don't think the following interpretation of the clue's language is defensible: "On November 3, 1948 he sent a congratulatory telegram, then [but not immediately after, rather after an unspecified event occurred that put that telegram in a different context, he] told reporters, 'I was just as surprised as you'". That's way too much meaning to load into the word "then". I get that you can think of Truman and get in a mental rut where you try to read the words that way. I just can't agree that this understanding represents a plain or even a fair if unlikely interpretation. Maybe if the clue had said "then later". Absent any clarification, "then" needs to mean "the next thing that happened was" or the clue is a cheat.

Elijah Baley
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 913
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Elijah Baley » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:40 am

opusthepenguin wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:32 am
Elijah Baley wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:04 am
opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:28 pm
Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:47 pm
No argument from me. But, I'm not saying that there's nothing that would lead to Dewey; instead, nothing jumps out that points definitively to him, as Alex implied. Unless you have pretty specific knowledge - like the fact that November 3 was the day after the election - either response seems pretty reasonable.
On November 3, 1948 he sent a congratulatory telegram, then told reporters, “I was just as surprised as you”

I don't think the clue makes sense unless the telegram and the comment to reporters BOTH happened after the "surprise". Given that, Alex's comment was exactly right. Truman wouldn't be the one sending the congratulatory telegram.
Yes, the clue makes sense in another way: Truman sees early results that show Dewey winning, in accordance with conventional wisdom. He sends a congratulatory telegram. Short time later, results show Truman won so he tells reporters, "I'm just as surprised as you."
We'll have to agree to disagree here. I see your point but I don't think the word "then" can bear that kind of weight. I think it would be deceptive for the clue to be written the way it is to describe the situation you envision. I don't think the following interpretation of the clue's language is defensible: "On November 3, 1948 he sent a congratulatory telegram, then [but not immediately after, rather after an unspecified event occurred that put that telegram in a different context, he] told reporters, 'I was just as surprised as you'". That's way too much meaning to load into the word "then". I get that you can think of Truman and get in a mental rut where you try to read the words that way. I just can't agree that this understanding represents a plain or even a fair if unlikely interpretation. Maybe if the clue had said "then later". Absent any clarification, "then" needs to mean "the next thing that happened was" or the clue is a cheat.
Ok, I surrender! Anyone who read the clue as possibly pointing to Truman is obviously unfamiliar with the strict rigidity of the English language. ;)

davey
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 2946
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:55 pm

Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by davey » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:37 pm

Elijah Baley wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:40 am
opusthepenguin wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:32 am
Elijah Baley wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:04 am
opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:28 pm
Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:47 pm
No argument from me. But, I'm not saying that there's nothing that would lead to Dewey; instead, nothing jumps out that points definitively to him, as Alex implied. Unless you have pretty specific knowledge - like the fact that November 3 was the day after the election - either response seems pretty reasonable.
On November 3, 1948 he sent a congratulatory telegram, then told reporters, “I was just as surprised as you”

I don't think the clue makes sense unless the telegram and the comment to reporters BOTH happened after the "surprise". Given that, Alex's comment was exactly right. Truman wouldn't be the one sending the congratulatory telegram.
Yes, the clue makes sense in another way: Truman sees early results that show Dewey winning, in accordance with conventional wisdom. He sends a congratulatory telegram. Short time later, results show Truman won so he tells reporters, "I'm just as surprised as you."
We'll have to agree to disagree here. I see your point but I don't think the word "then" can bear that kind of weight. I think it would be deceptive for the clue to be written the way it is to describe the situation you envision. I don't think the following interpretation of the clue's language is defensible: "On November 3, 1948 he sent a congratulatory telegram, then [but not immediately after, rather after an unspecified event occurred that put that telegram in a different context, he] told reporters, 'I was just as surprised as you'". That's way too much meaning to load into the word "then". I get that you can think of Truman and get in a mental rut where you try to read the words that way. I just can't agree that this understanding represents a plain or even a fair if unlikely interpretation. Maybe if the clue had said "then later". Absent any clarification, "then" needs to mean "the next thing that happened was" or the clue is a cheat.
Ok, I surrender! Anyone who read the clue as possibly pointing to Truman is obviously unfamiliar with the strict rigidity of the English language. ;)
As I suggested in my post above, my immediate idea for the first 10 seconds was that maybe Truman sent a wire congratulating Dewey for the headline, then turned on the press with a needling remark that also established his humility in winning his own term...After :10 or so, that started to seem too elaborate for FJ...But yes, the clue can be parsed in more than one way.

I'll add that: Maybe I thought this because the remark seems lacking in grace coming from Dewey. It's a little Clintonian maybe, a deep-state smugness??... ;) I think of him as the little man on the wedding cake, in Alice Roosevelt's phrase, but she probably didn't mean that he was self-effacing.

User avatar
BigDaddyMatty
Save Me, Maggie!
Posts: 2675
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:05 am
Location: Rowlett, Texas

Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by BigDaddyMatty » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:13 am

Coryat: 30,400
43 R/3 W
DD: 3/3
FJ: :mrgreen:
LT: Mayflower Compact (DD), Hoboken, Dakota (DD), Detroit Red Wings

Like several of you, I was initially stuck on the landlocked = no land on the perimeter of the country idea. If not for my miss of Arkansas for Arizona, there's no way I would've gotten the Dakota DD.
Sprinkles are for winners.

bbird
Valued Contributor
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:32 pm

Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by bbird » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:05 am

Volante wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:58 pm
Seems the Dardanelles and Bosporus are a smidge wider than a typical river.
Just wanted to thank you for sending me on a little map study the other day, so I could instaget the Dardanelles clue in Wednesday's game. :mrgreen:

User avatar
jeff6286
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 4279
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:34 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by jeff6286 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:45 am

I tend to agree in hindsight that the usage of “then” is a decent pointer to Dewey over Truman. However, in the immediate aftermath of the clue and particularly given Alex’s reaction to the misses, I hated the clue as it seemed perfectly reasonable to give either Dewey or Truman if you have no personal knowledge of the telegram, and especially if you don’t know if November 3 was Tuesday or Wednesday.

What made me lean toward the wrong response during the thinking time was that of course the loser would always concede or congratulate the winner, that would happen in virtually every election. the thing that makes this notable is that in this case the eventual winner sent a note of congratulations, that’s why they’re asking about it! I still maintain that this logic is powerful enough to overcome the opposing logic which is mostly strengthened by the implied meaning of the word “then”, and therefore I still very much hate this choice as an FJ clue!

User avatar
jeff6286
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 4279
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:34 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by jeff6286 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:48 am

seaborgium wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:41 pm
Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:47 pm
Stanislaus Jacob wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:17 pm
Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:58 pm

To me, this question was a toss-up between Dewey and Truman. Since it was widely expected that Dewey would win, it seems very possible that Truman could have sent a telegram congratulating Dewey on his "win," only to find out later that the results were in his favor. As it turns out, the election was on November 2, 1948, so this scenario is pretty unlikely for Truman sending a telegram on November 3 - although it could have been just after midnight. But, there's no way that they should expect that any contestant would know the exact date of the election.

So, Alex's "explanation" that only one person would get a congratulatory telegram in the context of an election sounds reasonable, but it's really just lazy thinking.
I wouldn't say that this was the greatest clue of all time, but I would defend it. Truman's feisty personality is fairly well-known, and he does not seem like the type who would concede prematurely. And the famous picture of him mockingly holding up the Tribune does not match the idea that he would admit to reporters, "I was just as surprised as you." And finally, the wording seems to imply that the telegram was followed immediately by the comment, not that there was a gap of several hours as the situation gradually reversed.

I can see your point, but I think there was enough to lead someone to the correct response.
No argument from me. But, I'm not saying that there's nothing that would lead to Dewey; instead, nothing jumps out that points definitively to him, as Alex implied. Unless you have pretty specific knowledge - like the fact that November 3 was the day after the election - either response seems pretty reasonable.
"I was just as surprised as you" seems to point definitively to Dewey. It sounds like a commiseration: "Boy oh boy, guys, we both failed pretty hard, huh?"
You could also meta-solve this FJ by thinking, "They gave an exact date which corresponds to the first election after WWII. Given that, Truman's a little too on-the-nose a response; it's probably the guy he beat."
I have to say that this meta-solving advice seems way off the mark. I’ve watched more than enough Jeopardy! and I know full well that you’ve watched more than enough Jeopardy! to know that a pretty significant percentage of the time, the FJ clue points very clearly toward an obvious answer and most of the time that answer is the right one.

Saying “oh the obvious response is too on-the-nose, it must be something harder or more obscure”, down that path lies madness, and TPH!

User avatar
opusthepenguin
The Best Darn Penguin on the Whole JBoard
Posts: 5998
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:33 pm
Location: Shawnee, KS
Contact:

Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:09 am

jeff6286 wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:45 am
I tend to agree in hindsight that the usage of “then” is a decent pointer to Dewey over Truman. However, in the immediate aftermath of the clue and particularly given Alex’s reaction to the misses, I hated the clue as it seemed perfectly reasonable to give either Dewey or Truman if you have no personal knowledge of the telegram, and especially if you don’t know if November 3 was Tuesday or Wednesday.

What made me lean toward the wrong response during the thinking time was that of course the loser would always concede or congratulate the winner, that would happen in virtually every election. the thing that makes this notable is that in this case the eventual winner sent a note of congratulations, that’s why they’re asking about it! I still maintain that this logic is powerful enough to overcome the opposing logic which is mostly strengthened by the implied meaning of the word “then”, and therefore I still very much hate this choice as an FJ clue!
I think that's an excellent point. I can easily see how one could get on the Truman train and not find a way or a need to get off it before the music ended.

On the other hand, the clue is currently polling at 73%. It can't be THAT misleading.

davey
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 2946
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:55 pm

Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by davey » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:06 pm

1stlvlthinker wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:32 pm
Wait, if everyone thought Dewey was the winner, why would Dewey be sending the telegram?
He sent the telegram the next day, after 11 AM, when it was clear he had lost-
https://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlest ... tretch.htm

In fact, the Chicago Tribune headline was wrong and premature, as was quickly realized by the editors when they changed it for the second edition-
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: brick, Magna, NoWhammies10, xxaaaxx and 22 guests