Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:38 am

hscer wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:23 am
opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:00 am
da Doctah wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:57 am
Anybody else think Ali should have gotten credit, perhaps after the break, for "semiotics"? Yes, I knew before he said it what they were going for, but when I heard his response I thought to myself "yeah, that works too".


This raises similar issues to our 2016 discussion on the Alekhine Defense. A contestant described it as a "chess strategy" and received credit. The Alekhine Defense is actually a chess OPENING, which chess mavens distinguish from a strategy. Most of us agreed that the AD is nevertheless a "strategy" in the ordinary, broader sense of that term. So we agreed with the contestant receiving credit.
Did anyone vote for BMS?
That wasn't a choice, though perhaps it should have been. Here's a link to the poll and its discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3567

Note that This Is Kirk! opines that "it really comes down to a question of semantics." So it really is identical to the issue currently under discussion. :D

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by John Boy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:01 pm

DBear wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:32 pm
Magna Carta for 1620 was a particularly bad guess.
I agree. But Ali made up for it (in my mind at least) by correctly getting the fairly obscure "Man With The Golden Arm." For me that was an Instaget because it was one of my favorite albums growing up. But that was, um, so long ago, I didn't think anyone would get it. Oh, and yeah, Ali's win. Let's not forget that.

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by hscer » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:06 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:38 am
hscer wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:23 am


Did anyone vote for BMS?
That wasn't a choice, though perhaps it should have been. Here's a link to the poll and its discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3567

Note that This Is Kirk! opines that "it really comes down to a question of semantics." So it really is identical to the issue currently under discussion. :D
BMS was the first thing that came to mind when I checked the game on the J-Archive. But the first 3 paragraphs of OldSchoolChamp's post at the end of page 2 in your link are a pretty good argument for just accepting strategy. Anyway, not to re-litigate that whole thing. It looked like it might not have ended well.
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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by davey » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:56 pm

StevenH wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:24 am
I wasn't a fan of the landlocked states or the drop the "i" category, but it's hard for me not to like a board that has a clue on Titian (multiple artists did a painting of the assumption of the virgin, but I picked Titian because I have always thought his version to be the most famous). I didn't notice the omission of the "n" at the end of his name, though.

I got FJ, but I read it a couple times to make sure I picked the right dude. I might have expected one contestant, but not two to pick Truman. But this was still a great game.
The pavlov in the Titian clue was hair of the red-gold color for which his art was known...
Ali gets my benefit of the doubt for his relaxed enunciation. He certainly comes down very lightly on the n, but I don't assume it's not there...
I almost fell for the "Truman had a sharp sense of humor so he'd send a congratulating telegram ironically" theory...but thought better of it in time...
As for Thomas Dewey not being famous for anything else...Doesn't anybody here follow mob history??... ;)

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/sho ... e-1.803515

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by seaborgium » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:26 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:38 am
Note that This Is Kirk! opines that "it really comes down to a question of semantics." So it really is identical to the issue currently under discussion. :D
And OldSchoolChamp touched upon strategy versus tactics, which the SUFF-ICS category also did.

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by AFRET CMS » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:54 pm

Cat Hammarskjold wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:55 pm
Most geographic sources consider the Delaware River from Philadelphia downstream to be part of the Atlantic Ocean, and therefore not making Pennsylvania landlocked.
And so do some JBoard participants. I can picture 1776:

"We need ships."
"I know -- let's put our very first shipyard in a landlocked state!"
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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Elijah Baley » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:58 pm

StevenH wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:24 am
I wasn't a fan of the landlocked states or the drop the "i" category, but it's hard for me not to like a board that has a clue on Titian (multiple artists did a painting of the assumption of the virgin, but I picked Titian because I have always thought his version to be the most famous). I didn't notice the omission of the "n" at the end of his name, though.

I got FJ, but I read it a couple times to make sure I picked the right dude. I might have expected one contestant, but not two to pick Truman. But this was still a great game.
To me, this question was a toss-up between Dewey and Truman. Since it was widely expected that Dewey would win, it seems very possible that Truman could have sent a telegram congratulating Dewey on his "win," only to find out later that the results were in his favor. As it turns out, the election was on November 2, 1948, so this scenario is pretty unlikely for Truman sending a telegram on November 3 - although it could have been just after midnight. But, there's no way that they should expect that any contestant would know the exact date of the election.

So, Alex's "explanation" that only one person would get a congratulatory telegram in the context of an election sounds reasonable, but it's really just lazy thinking.

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by John Boy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:30 pm

Cat Hammarskjold wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:55 pm
Most geographic sources consider the Delaware River from Philadelphia downstream to be part of the Atlantic Ocean, and therefore not making Pennsylvania landlocked.

I'm glad Ali got the Joe Frazier question. Maybe they'll have one on Sonny Liston or George Foreman tomorrow.
I was very surprised to see PA considered landlocked. 1) for the reason you give here: you can reach the Atlantic via the Delaware River; and b) because you can reach the Atlantic via Lake Erie and the St. Lawrence Seaway. Maybe they're using a different definition of landlocked....

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Elijah Baley » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:52 pm

John Boy wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:30 pm
Cat Hammarskjold wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:55 pm
Most geographic sources consider the Delaware River from Philadelphia downstream to be part of the Atlantic Ocean, and therefore not making Pennsylvania landlocked.

I'm glad Ali got the Joe Frazier question. Maybe they'll have one on Sonny Liston or George Foreman tomorrow.
I was very surprised to see PA considered landlocked. 1) for the reason you give here: you can reach the Atlantic via the Delaware River; and b) because you can reach the Atlantic via Lake Erie and the St. Lawrence Seaway. Maybe they're using a different definition of landlocked....
As I understand it, landlocked states (or countries) lack a territorial boundary on an ocean (including a bay or gulf, for example). The fact that a state or country may have access through a river or other waterway to an ocean isn't enough to change that status. Whether there's a legal or more definitive definition, I believe that's what the writers had in mind.

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Volante » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:42 pm

Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:52 pm
John Boy wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:30 pm
Cat Hammarskjold wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:55 pm
Most geographic sources consider the Delaware River from Philadelphia downstream to be part of the Atlantic Ocean, and therefore not making Pennsylvania landlocked.

I'm glad Ali got the Joe Frazier question. Maybe they'll have one on Sonny Liston or George Foreman tomorrow.
I was very surprised to see PA considered landlocked. 1) for the reason you give here: you can reach the Atlantic via the Delaware River; and b) because you can reach the Atlantic via Lake Erie and the St. Lawrence Seaway. Maybe they're using a different definition of landlocked....
As I understand it, landlocked states (or countries) lack a territorial boundary on an ocean (including a bay or gulf, for example). The fact that a state or country may have access through a river or other waterway to an ocean isn't enough to change that status. Whether there's a legal or more definitive definition, I believe that's what the writers had in mind.
Ukraine isn't considered landlocked.

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Elijah Baley » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:10 pm

Volante wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:42 pm
Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:52 pm
John Boy wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:30 pm
Cat Hammarskjold wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:55 pm
Most geographic sources consider the Delaware River from Philadelphia downstream to be part of the Atlantic Ocean, and therefore not making Pennsylvania landlocked.

I'm glad Ali got the Joe Frazier question. Maybe they'll have one on Sonny Liston or George Foreman tomorrow.
I was very surprised to see PA considered landlocked. 1) for the reason you give here: you can reach the Atlantic via the Delaware River; and b) because you can reach the Atlantic via Lake Erie and the St. Lawrence Seaway. Maybe they're using a different definition of landlocked....
As I understand it, landlocked states (or countries) lack a territorial boundary on an ocean (including a bay or gulf, for example). The fact that a state or country may have access through a river or other waterway to an ocean isn't enough to change that status. Whether there's a legal or more definitive definition, I believe that's what the writers had in mind.
Ukraine isn't considered landlocked.
Being on a sea that isn't enclosed doesn't qualify as landlocked either; I guess I could have been more precise. Contrast Ukraine with Kazakhstan.

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Stanislaus Jacob » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:17 pm

Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:58 pm

To me, this question was a toss-up between Dewey and Truman. Since it was widely expected that Dewey would win, it seems very possible that Truman could have sent a telegram congratulating Dewey on his "win," only to find out later that the results were in his favor. As it turns out, the election was on November 2, 1948, so this scenario is pretty unlikely for Truman sending a telegram on November 3 - although it could have been just after midnight. But, there's no way that they should expect that any contestant would know the exact date of the election.

So, Alex's "explanation" that only one person would get a congratulatory telegram in the context of an election sounds reasonable, but it's really just lazy thinking.
I wouldn't say that this was the greatest clue of all time, but I would defend it. Truman's feisty personality is fairly well-known, and he does not seem like the type who would concede prematurely. And the famous picture of him mockingly holding up the Tribune does not match the idea that he would admit to reporters, "I was just as surprised as you." And finally, the wording seems to imply that the telegram was followed immediately by the comment, not that there was a gap of several hours as the situation gradually reversed.

I can see your point, but I think there was enough to lead someone to the correct response.

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by mikebdoss » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:36 pm

I'd wager that if we were to allow "states not accessible by waterway" as the definition of "landlocked", there may not be any landlocked states at all.

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Elijah Baley » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:47 pm

Stanislaus Jacob wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:17 pm
Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:58 pm

To me, this question was a toss-up between Dewey and Truman. Since it was widely expected that Dewey would win, it seems very possible that Truman could have sent a telegram congratulating Dewey on his "win," only to find out later that the results were in his favor. As it turns out, the election was on November 2, 1948, so this scenario is pretty unlikely for Truman sending a telegram on November 3 - although it could have been just after midnight. But, there's no way that they should expect that any contestant would know the exact date of the election.

So, Alex's "explanation" that only one person would get a congratulatory telegram in the context of an election sounds reasonable, but it's really just lazy thinking.
I wouldn't say that this was the greatest clue of all time, but I would defend it. Truman's feisty personality is fairly well-known, and he does not seem like the type who would concede prematurely. And the famous picture of him mockingly holding up the Tribune does not match the idea that he would admit to reporters, "I was just as surprised as you." And finally, the wording seems to imply that the telegram was followed immediately by the comment, not that there was a gap of several hours as the situation gradually reversed.

I can see your point, but I think there was enough to lead someone to the correct response.
No argument from me. But, I'm not saying that there's nothing that would lead to Dewey; instead, nothing jumps out that points definitively to him, as Alex implied. Unless you have pretty specific knowledge - like the fact that November 3 was the day after the election - either response seems pretty reasonable.

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by seaborgium » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:41 pm

Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:47 pm
Stanislaus Jacob wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:17 pm
Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:58 pm

To me, this question was a toss-up between Dewey and Truman. Since it was widely expected that Dewey would win, it seems very possible that Truman could have sent a telegram congratulating Dewey on his "win," only to find out later that the results were in his favor. As it turns out, the election was on November 2, 1948, so this scenario is pretty unlikely for Truman sending a telegram on November 3 - although it could have been just after midnight. But, there's no way that they should expect that any contestant would know the exact date of the election.

So, Alex's "explanation" that only one person would get a congratulatory telegram in the context of an election sounds reasonable, but it's really just lazy thinking.
I wouldn't say that this was the greatest clue of all time, but I would defend it. Truman's feisty personality is fairly well-known, and he does not seem like the type who would concede prematurely. And the famous picture of him mockingly holding up the Tribune does not match the idea that he would admit to reporters, "I was just as surprised as you." And finally, the wording seems to imply that the telegram was followed immediately by the comment, not that there was a gap of several hours as the situation gradually reversed.

I can see your point, but I think there was enough to lead someone to the correct response.
No argument from me. But, I'm not saying that there's nothing that would lead to Dewey; instead, nothing jumps out that points definitively to him, as Alex implied. Unless you have pretty specific knowledge - like the fact that November 3 was the day after the election - either response seems pretty reasonable.
"I was just as surprised as you" seems to point definitively to Dewey. It sounds like a commiseration: "Boy oh boy, guys, we both failed pretty hard, huh?"
You could also meta-solve this FJ by thinking, "They gave an exact date which corresponds to the first election after WWII. Given that, Truman's a little too on-the-nose a response; it's probably the guy he beat."

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Volante » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:58 pm

Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:10 pm
Volante wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:42 pm
Ukraine isn't considered landlocked.
Being on a sea that isn't enclosed doesn't qualify as landlocked either; I guess I could have been more precise. Contrast Ukraine with Kazakhstan.
Seems the Dardanelles and Bosporus are a smidge wider than a typical river. I just wonder where the cutoff is, width wise. The Dardanelles' minimum is 3/4ths of a mile, the Bosporus, half. Or if it's because on the other side of the narrow water is large water (e.g., them being straits, not rivers).
mikebdoss wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:36 pm
I'd wager that if we were to allow "states not accessible by waterway" as the definition of "landlocked", there may not be any landlocked states at all.
I'd say at minimum the waters have to be navigable, which effectively rules out access via the Colorado and thus Arizona.

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Elijah Baley » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:28 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:41 pm
Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:47 pm
Stanislaus Jacob wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:17 pm
Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:58 pm

To me, this question was a toss-up between Dewey and Truman. Since it was widely expected that Dewey would win, it seems very possible that Truman could have sent a telegram congratulating Dewey on his "win," only to find out later that the results were in his favor. As it turns out, the election was on November 2, 1948, so this scenario is pretty unlikely for Truman sending a telegram on November 3 - although it could have been just after midnight. But, there's no way that they should expect that any contestant would know the exact date of the election.

So, Alex's "explanation" that only one person would get a congratulatory telegram in the context of an election sounds reasonable, but it's really just lazy thinking.
I wouldn't say that this was the greatest clue of all time, but I would defend it. Truman's feisty personality is fairly well-known, and he does not seem like the type who would concede prematurely. And the famous picture of him mockingly holding up the Tribune does not match the idea that he would admit to reporters, "I was just as surprised as you." And finally, the wording seems to imply that the telegram was followed immediately by the comment, not that there was a gap of several hours as the situation gradually reversed.

I can see your point, but I think there was enough to lead someone to the correct response.
No argument from me. But, I'm not saying that there's nothing that would lead to Dewey; instead, nothing jumps out that points definitively to him, as Alex implied. Unless you have pretty specific knowledge - like the fact that November 3 was the day after the election - either response seems pretty reasonable.
"I was just as surprised as you" seems to point definitively to Dewey. It sounds like a commiseration: "Boy oh boy, guys, we both failed pretty hard, huh?"
You could also meta-solve this FJ by thinking, "They gave an exact date which corresponds to the first election after WWII. Given that, Truman's a little too on-the-nose a response; it's probably the guy he beat."
Except the conventional wisdom was that Dewey was going to win, and there is no time reference between the telegram and the comment to reporters. So - again - it is reasonable to believe that Truman sent a "congratulatory" telegram at some point, and some point not much later, tells reporters that "I'm just as surprised by you [that I won]."

And again, I'm not saying that this is the only or even the most likely way to read the clue, but the correct response isn't definitely indicated.

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:28 pm

Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:47 pm
No argument from me. But, I'm not saying that there's nothing that would lead to Dewey; instead, nothing jumps out that points definitively to him, as Alex implied. Unless you have pretty specific knowledge - like the fact that November 3 was the day after the election - either response seems pretty reasonable.
On November 3, 1948 he sent a congratulatory telegram, then told reporters, “I was just as surprised as you”

I don't think the clue makes sense unless the telegram and the comment to reporters BOTH happened after the "surprise". Given that, Alex's comment was exactly right. Truman wouldn't be the one sending the congratulatory telegram.

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Rackme32 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:36 am

mrparadise wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:51 pm
I settled on Dewey but really though they might be trying to trick us. If the paper (Chicago Trib?) went with the Dewey Defeats Truman headline mightn't Truman have thought he lost based on the early returns and sent off the congrats telegram. Not likely, I know, but possible.
I thought Truman for the very same reason, the headline and not having seen later returns yet.

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Re: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 Game Recap and Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Elijah Baley » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:04 am

opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:28 pm
Elijah Baley wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:47 pm
No argument from me. But, I'm not saying that there's nothing that would lead to Dewey; instead, nothing jumps out that points definitively to him, as Alex implied. Unless you have pretty specific knowledge - like the fact that November 3 was the day after the election - either response seems pretty reasonable.
On November 3, 1948 he sent a congratulatory telegram, then told reporters, “I was just as surprised as you”

I don't think the clue makes sense unless the telegram and the comment to reporters BOTH happened after the "surprise". Given that, Alex's comment was exactly right. Truman wouldn't be the one sending the congratulatory telegram.
Yes, the clue makes sense in another way: Truman sees early results that show Dewey winning, in accordance with conventional wisdom. He sends a congratulatory telegram. Short time later, results show Truman won so he tells reporters, "I'm just as surprised as you."

For what seems like the 10th time, I get that this isn't what happened because, among other things, November 3 was the day after the election. The clue doesn't give you that info, however, so unless one has knowledge about who sent the telegram, does the information in the clue reasonably lead to either Truman or Dewey? Yes.

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