Wednesday, January 18, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[earendel]

14/30, 11/30.

I hate those "He's the person seen here" clues that give only the vaguest info on the person. Don't they realize some people have prosopagnosia? (Doesn't really matter since I've never seen a picture of Ricky Gervais before anyway.)

The only reason I recognized the picture was that I had seen ads for the Golden Globes, which he hosted.

[John Boy]

I don't say this often -- lord knows I miss my fair share of gimmes -- but when spotted an island named "Ikaria", how was this not a triple-get?

Some people either don't know their Greek mythology, or didn't make the connection between Ikaria and Icarus-Daedelus. Oh well.

[lisa0012]

Debra, congrats on getting on the show and representing us in DFW! I'm sorry the game didn't go your way, but it was a good effort and I (as well as all of Texas, I'm sure) were cheering you on.

[John Boy]

I saw "Ikaria" and thought Icarus->Daedalus right away, but backed away because the clue gave literally no hint that they were looking for someone fictitious. Evil evil clue.

Excuse me, but how can you make the connection between Ikaria and Icarus/Daedalus (fictional/mythological persons) and say there was "no hint they were looking for someone fictitious?"

You do realize that those two characters are mythological, yes?

[alietr]

Sorry it didn't go your way, Debra. I had high hopes for you (as I'm sure you did). It's pretty frustrating knowing you have the knowledge to win and it just plain doesn't work out that day. The luck component (and I personally think that includes buzzing in) can be a significant factor. I could tell you were going to go TDD, and it was just a stinker of a clue, unfortunately.

Someone asked this much earlier in the thread, but an alternative way to search the Archive is to use Google:

<search term> site:j-archive.com

So if you're looking for Icarus,

Icarus site:j-archive.com

Many people don't seem to know about this feature.

[TenPoundHammer]

I saw "Ikaria" and thought Icarus->Daedalus right away, but backed away because the clue gave literally no hint that they were looking for someone fictitious. Evil evil clue.

Excuse me, but how can you make the connection between Ikaria and Icarus/Daedalus (fictional/mythological persons) and say there was "no hint they were looking for someone fictitious?"

You do realize that those two characters are mythological, yes?

I'm saying that I threw out Daedalus because the category was Fathers and Sons, which to me screamed "NOT FREAKING FICTIONAL". I figured "Nah, Ikaria... can't be Icarus anything, because if it were Daedalus/Icarus, they would've said FICTIONAL somewhere in the clue and/or category. Gotta be some other historical figure everyone's heard of but me."

[John Boy]

I saw "Ikaria" and thought Icarus->Daedalus right away, but backed away because the clue gave literally no hint that they were looking for someone fictitious. Evil evil clue.

Excuse me, but how can you make the connection between Ikaria and Icarus/Daedalus (fictional/mythological persons) and say there was "no hint they were looking for someone fictitious?"

You do realize that those two characters are mythological, yes?

I'm saying that I threw out Daedalus because the category was Fathers and Sons, which to me screamed "NOT FREAKING FICTIONAL". I figured "Nah, Ikaria... can't be Icarus anything, because if it were Daedalus/Icarus, they would've said FICTIONAL somewhere in the clue and/or category. Gotta be some other historical figure everyone's heard of but me."

I guess I don't understand why that category name would give you that idea. If they had asked you to name one of the sons of Zeus, or to name the father of Apollo....?? Sounds as if you read the clue, found no hint in it SPECIFYING that they are looking for fictional characters, and inferred from that that they CAN'T be looking for someone fictional.

I think we all learn as we go along how to read J! clues, and to figure out from the wording, hints, etc. what they are and aren't looking for. Perhaps this will be a teachable moment for you.

[CyrusChan]

The interview segment compliments from last night were not in play tonight. Alex was partly the fault as he cut off Debra, but Zach meeting his wife and Amy knitting body parts didn't work.

Tonight's Sports category was a good one as it rewarded someone who knows the category and penalized guessers. Those clues were unlikely to have all three players battling over each of the five clues.

Debra perhaps lost the game twice on DDs. If she solved Mare's Milk then she likely would have won. If Zach had solved his Williamsburg DD then Debra would have been in a better position to win on her sole solve. Instead Amy was in the right placement to win as long as Zach missed.

The FJ clue had my response set with a wax seal once I was sure my spelling looked good. Fictional/Real was no reason to get thrown off. Ikaria looks like Icarus. Name the pappy.

I had answered Richmond as the capital hastily too! IN addition, the question with Cam Newton is pretty hard unless one followed NFL/CF this past yr. Chances are the less than half of the audience has even heard of him.

[alietr]

My response on Virginia's capital was "Richm ... no, too early, negbait ... Williamsburg."

[econgator]

Perhaps this will be a teachable moment for you.

Ahhh, you poor, deluded man ....

[nserven]

All my pre-calls were real-life fathers & sons: the Sheens, the Adamses, the Bushes, and Henry & Edsel Ford, even though we just had an Edsel FJ a couple weeks back.

Still, I saw Ikaria and got it right away. Count me among those who pronounce it “Dedalus” (I remember my English teacher saying it that way), though I think I would have spelled it “Deadalus.”

I used to get catalogs in the mail from a wholesaler called Daedalus Books.

[opusthepenguin]

A tough break today, Debra. Great job on the sole FJ solve, though...even the best of the J! champs sometimes don't have that to their credit, so that's something to be proud of. That was definitely a pretty brutal DD you got there. (I said "malted milk" myself.)

Yeah, that "mare's milk" DD was brutal. It was one of those clues that left me staring blankly at the TV even after the correct response was revealed. Didn't sound familiar at all. If I'd realized that was our own debramc I was watching, I'd have felt even worse for the contestant than I did. Tough break, Debra. Did that cost you the game?

[opusthepenguin]

My train of thought on FJ: "Ikaria...hey, Icarus! Who was his dad? Oh yeah, Daedalus, wasn't it? Good." This all happened before Alex finished reading the clue...I don't know how it clicked so fast, but I'm glad it did.

I don't think I even heard Alex read the rest of the clue; my eyes went straight to Ikaria, and I was done. It seems clear to me, but the other two contestants went for real people too, so...hm.

I think this was one of those FJs that a lot of people either get right away or not at all. If you don't key in on "Ikaria" and think of "Icarus", you're not going to work your way around to the right answer. And whatever you write down in desperation as the clock runs out will just make you look clueless. I agree that the wording seemed to point to a real person. That had me very slightly worried. But "Ikaria" was such a strong TOM that I couldn't imagine what else it could be.

[OrangeSAM]

OK, am I the only one who spelled it "Dedalus"? Never thought about the other spelling. ...

In any case "Dedalus" is acceptable, right?

...

No, you're not the only one to spell it that way. [Hand raises.]

Typing "Dedalus" into the Wikipedia search box redirects you straight to Daedalus and not to some disambiguation page. I think we're ok.

[debramc]

So I tried to stay up late enough to comment more last night, but I just had to go to bed way before most of you showed up here! (Thanks TPTB for airing me in the middle of exam week!)

So in random order, here's some thoughts/answers to your questions. (Saving the mare's milk for last - mmm, yummy dessert!)
FJ: I precalled Kirk & Michael Douglas. And immediately figured that would be wrong since they not that long ago had them as an FJ. (Actually a couple years, but it felt more recent at the time.) But I think that getting actors in my head got me more quickly into the land of fiction as a possibility. I can sort of see where people would be thrown off by thinking they were looking for real people, but to me it was as easy as "Ikaria, must be named after Icarus, son of - tada! - Daedalus." I spent the next 28 seconds assuring myself that nothing in the wording or category name required these to be a real father/son, and trying to remember any story about, say, a president or king of Greece who may have lost a son in an early 20th century aviation accident - "nah, that's silly, gotta be Daedalus." Afterwards, both Amy & Zach commented that the story of Daedalus and Icarus never occurred to them at all. I don't remember them saying anything about getting stuck on the people having to be real, but it's possible. (Possible they thought it, even possible they said it and I forgot.) I'll take my victories where I can find them.

I got mare's milk okay. I think I was helped by one of Stephen Weingarten's interviews where he talked about milking a horse (complete with miming!) in Kazakhstan or thereabouts.

Like I said, I'll come back to this.

And Daedalus was darn near an instaget (instead of "Oh, Daedalus," my thought process was, "Oh, Icarus's father. Daedalus").


Good showing, Debra. I don't know if it makes it better or worse to think you'd have won if you'd gotten the DD right, but at least the wager itself didn't make the difference between winning and losing. (That's why I find it sort of a blessing that I missed a lock in my ToC final by $4,001; it prevents me from regretting the $3,800 I wagered and lost on the first FJ of the finals.) P.S. Speaking of wagers, I loved your FJ wager! Beats Zach's smallest "attempt to win" wager if you're right and he's wrong, beats 2,399 of his biggest "attempt to win" wagers if you're both wrong.

This is the greatest praise of all. This is what I was hoping for. Thank you, Stefan, for acknowledging the results of the topic that was hardest for me to study for - wagering. I hate wagering theory. I have a math degree and am perfectly good at the number-crunching end of it. It's the steps of logic involved that trip me up. On a normal day 3 years ago (before I found the board) I pretty much ignored wagering, beyond being impressed when people went big. Then I started paying attention once I read what all you guys were saying about it and tried to figure out the best wagers when watching. My mind just glazes over every time. Even when reading all the posts you guys would make tearing apart people’s wagers, I was just too impatient to follow it. The only way I could ever understand it was to use an entire sheet of paper to chart all the possibilities, and it would take about 15 minutes. And then I’d worry about making assumptions about what your opponents are wagering. And I’d go through phases of ignoring it again. It was only when I got the call that I really buckled down and tried to start recognizing the scenarios without having to trudge through all the details every time. (My airport/on-plane study consisted of imagining different ending scores and figuring out the best wagers.) It’s still not easy but it paid off. I was actually a little worried about Amy since she didn’t bet logically the day before, but I couldn’t really see any reason why she’d overwager enough to where I could outright win on a sole get, so I just made sure I could beat Zach. And sure enough, he over wagered, but it’s the predictable overwager from 2nd so it was cool. I was very proud of myself for doing the calcs pretty quickly and managing to salvage 2nd place.

Grr, second day in a row (can't remember if the previous instance was one of the online tests or the show) that I mixed up Madison and Monroe! And after the first time, I realized it was a silly mistake and promised never to do it again! :headslap:

I did not actually know that fact about Monroe negotiating the LP. I was stunned watching yesterday to see myself ringing in successfully and getting it right. In retrospect, I think my logic was “hmm, the timing implies Madison or Monroe, but which? (because I mix them up too). Well, Monroe Doctrine = westward expansion, Louisiana’s to the west, go for it.” Whatever. It worked.

In "symbology," I negged myself for saying "State capitals" instead of just capitals, kinda like negging myself for "blue whale" instead of whale a day or so ago.

I think that this would be the kind of response that would be negged originally, but credited later, after "our researchers have done some checking and have found some maps that have a state capital with that symbol, so we are crediting Ken with the money ... "

I was trying ro ring in to say “Texaco”. Haha, glad I didn’t get in on time on that one.!

Way to represent the board, Debra! (Sole get in FJ!? That's gotta go on the resume!) I will take the opportunity to say something, though:

Looks like I'm the first Bernadette. Though I have aspects of Amy & Leonard as well. And when I was a lot younger I did have trouble talking to the opposite sex without being under the influence of alcohol, but that's my only Raj-quality. And I got over it.

Sorry, Debra, but I totally got an Amy Farrah Fowler vibe all the way tonight.

See, I was going to say I was an Amy Farrah Fowler, but my husband said “No, you’re more like Bernadette.” I think this is because he finds Bernadette prettier. And I’m not quite as nerdy as Amy. Close, but not quite. (As to his judgment of my looks, he has also said I look like Gwyneth Paltrow. Obviously he needs better glasses!)

Sorry it didn't go your way, Debra. I had high hopes for you (as I'm sure you did). It's pretty frustrating knowing you have the knowledge to win and it just plain doesn't work out that day. The luck component (and I personally think that includes buzzing in) can be a significant factor. I could tell you were going to go TDD, and it was just a stinker of a clue, unfortunately.

As to my DD wager, of course I’m going true DD in that situation - early in the first round? I’d have done that regardless. And milk is a wheelhouse anyway…

I’d have gotten the Williamsburg DD wrong just as Zach did - had no clue actually that the capital had ever been anything besides Richmond, so I assumed it was the answer. But yes, I wish Zach had had a higher score at the end to force Amy’s wager to be bigger. Oh well.

I stunned myself by not only getting one right in pop culture but then calling for the next clue in the category! But really I’m surprised not more of you knew who Ricky Gervais is?!? I thought we had a lot of fans of “The Office”. I rarely watched it myself, but there was so much hype about it being based on the British show of the same name that I thought everyone would know that one. (I guess that’s why they put it in the top row.)

Do you think they’d have accepted Baron von Richthofen instead of Red Baron? That’s what I was going to say. It’s certainly his real name, but I think Peanuts only refers to him as the Red Baron.

Ok, time for the mare’s milk. I know a lot about milk. I know a lot about animals. I know you can get milk from virtually any mammal (might be a challenge from marsupials & monotremes, not to mention any sort of wild carnivore, but, in principle…). I know how to make yogurt and kefir and many kinds of cheese. I’m the nerdy sort who reads up on food science, not being content to simply follow a recipe. I also spent some time in Turkey, and sampled a drink called ayran, which was described as being really weird and not to expect it to taste like milk or yogurt - certainly, it didn’t. When I got back to the states, I couldn’t remember what it was called but did some research and found out that throughout the Caucasus & Asia they drink a fermented mare’s milk called kumiss (many different spellings on that one) and assumed that’s what I had. (I’ve just researched and found out that ayran, at least in the Black Sea region, is made from cow’s milk and is in fact a yogurt-based drink.)
So, going into the DD I’m thinking “I know an awful darned lot about milk, this will be easy.” Never let yourself think that! It just messes up your brain. Confidence is one thing but I was verging into arrogance or at least a false sense of superiority…
So, I see the word airag, which even if they hadn’t mentioned Mongolia I would have figured for a Central Asian kind of word. I thought of Tibet… Ok, keep reading (this is all when Alex is just getting started on speaking) blah blah “fermented” blah blah “alliterative” (huh??) “dairy product”. I started having the feeling I should know this word. Tibet made me think of yaks, and I recalled reading in some childhood book of trivia, “Yaks give pink milk.” This fact turns out to be useless but gets stuck in my brain and won’t let any other animal in. By now Alex is through talking and I’m frantically rereading the clue (which is in very tiny print on a very big board) trying to figure out what I’m missing. I missed the fact that they were looking for the original product before it’s fermented, and I was trying to think of a two-word alliterative alternate name to yogurt or kefir or other already-fermented dairy product. You’d think I’d have at least managed to come up with the beautifully alliterative and quite obvious “yak yogurt” (as Zack pointed out to me in the post-game chat with Alex) but no. Nothing. I’m thinking of yaks, I’m thinking of yogurt, I’m thinking of alliteration, and I still can’t get the most obvious (though wrong) answer. And then Alex says “mare’s milk” Really slow, like I wouldn’t understand it otherwise. I want to punch him. And then I think “Airag! That must be that horrible Turkish drink I had! Yes, Mongolian and Turkish are related languages, and food words are often the most likely to be shared” and my whole thought process got stuck on linguistics. I was ready to produce the fact that not only Turkish and Mongolian, but also Hungarian, Finnish, Estonian and a slew of all those formerly Soviet Asian republics’ languages are all related, and wondered if Finns drink mare’s milk too. And I’m thinking to myself that this extended self-analysis in a couple seconds reminds me of Bob Harris’s Jabberwocky story (well a lot of his stories) in Prisoner of Trebekistan (which is the first thing I re-read after getting the call.) Then I came to a screeching halt and had to choose the next question.
Meanwhile a zero had appeared on my scoreboard. I felt like my whole life had led up to this failure… I thought the entire world must be laughing at me. At the same time I realized almost nobody would have gotten this one, but that didn’t do much to assuage the pain in the moment.
And after that I totally lost my buzzer mojo. My mom’s advice to me after watching yesterday was that I should have not moved my arm before buzzing because that wasted a lot of time. Well, actually I was hitting the buzzer the whole time. I didn’t really realize how much my arm moved, but I don’t think that was the problem. I was doing fine in practice.
Then when the break came Maggie came over and (in her sprightly Maggie-esque way) reassured me repeatedly that the true DD was absolutely the right thing to do and don’t beat myself up about it. I wanted to punch her too, since that was the one aspect of the whole fiasco I felt good about. “I wagered correctly. I lost everything because of it but I know it was the right choice.) Then I felt bad for being annoyed at Maggie and wished there were something stronger in the water bottle (like vodka. But Dr Pepper would have been acceptable.)

Then suddenly the cameras are on again and we’re doing stories. Alex refers to my great-grandfather’s recipe book as a “Journal”, a word I’ve never used in connection with that book and totally threw me off. I was amazed watching yesterday how well that segment came out. I didn’t feel like he cut me off, I actually thought the ending was perfect. Well, except for the fact I didn’t have the opportunity to mention the fact that my grandfather was an itinerant physician in the “Indian Territory” which later became Oklahoma. And then a few minutes later there was a question about Oklahoma, which fortunately I got. If I look surprised during that clue, it’s because I’m thinking “Hey I almost got to talk about that in my story!”

So thank you for staying tuned during this extended navel gazing. And many thanks to all of you who indirectly taught me wagering theory, my hat is off to you.

[edited because of course in that many words there's at least one typo]
[found another typo and realized I spelled Zach wrong all the way through - sorry, Zach!]

[econgator]

I did not actually know that fact about Monroe negotiating the LP. I was stunned watching yesterday to see myself ringing in successfully and getting it right. In retrospect, I think my logic was “hmm, the timing implies Madison or Monroe, but which? (because I mix them up too). Well, Monroe Doctrine = westward expansion, Louisiana’s to the west, go for it.” Whatever. It worked.

I may be wrong, but didn't they explicitly say "this 5th president"?

Regardless, that was a well-played game, Debra, and I was sorry to see you lose, but happy that you got the 2nd place check at least.

[opusthepenguin]

Still, I saw Ikaria and got it right away. Count me among those who pronounce it “Dedalus” (I remember my English teacher saying it that way), though I think I would have spelled it “Deadalus.”

I used to get catalogs in the mail from a wholesaler called Daedalus Books.

American Heritage, Random House, and Merriam Webster all list DEHD'lus as the first pronunciation. RH and MW have a secondary pronunciation of DEED'lus with RH labeling it "especially Brit." OED bears this out, listing only the DEED pronunciation.

Alex's pronunciation of DAYD'lus is not listed anywhere. (I don't have a Canadian dictionary.) "Daedalus" is a Latinized version of the Greek "Daidalos" (Δαίδαλος). Since Latin "ae" and Greek "ai" are often pronounced as AY when brought into English, DAYD'lus is defensible if not standard. In Latin and Greek, those diphthongs would have been pronounced like our word "eye", more or less. So DIED-uh-lus (where the "uh" is a schwa) is also fine.

As to the spelling, I have no doubt the judges would have accepted "Dedalus". Anyone scoring at home can put that in the get column without any worries.

Oh, and I also used to get catalogs from Daedalus Books. I ordered a few things from them. In general, I found that the subject matter was more interesting than the treatment thereof. So I stopped ordering.

[debramc]

I did not actually know that fact about Monroe negotiating the LP. I was stunned watching yesterday to see myself ringing in successfully and getting it right. In retrospect, I think my logic was “hmm, the timing implies Madison or Monroe, but which? (because I mix them up too). Well, Monroe Doctrine = westward expansion, Louisiana’s to the west, go for it.” Whatever. It worked.

I may be wrong, but didn't they explicitly say "this 5th president"?

Regardless, that was a well-played game, Debra, and I was sorry to see you lose, but happy that you got the 2nd place check at least.

I just went back and checked and it does say 5th president! I didn't catch that yesterday, and I really don't think I caught it at the time. (I still might have missed it, I never really got my president lists down cold, just vaguely.) Maybe I did get it subconsciously.

[davey]

Oh, and I also used to get catalogs from Daedalus Books. I ordered a few things from them. In general, I found that the subject matter was more interesting than the treatment thereof. So I stopped ordering

Funny thing - I just noticed this last night - "Dedalus" Books is the publisher of "concept books" (and currently on its home page has a picture of a glass with a white drink in it - could it be mare's milk??). "Daedalus" Books is the book discounter.

[debramc]

Oh, and I also used to get catalogs from Daedalus Books. I ordered a few things from them. In general, I found that the subject matter was more interesting than the treatment thereof. So I stopped ordering

Funny thing - I just noticed this last night - "Dedalus" Books is the publisher of "concept books" (and currently on its home page has a picture of a glass with a white drink in it - could it be mare's milk??). "Daedalus" Books is the book discounter.

That's hilarious! I bet it's something alcoholic, though. Maybe absinthe prepared with cold water? (DH is an absinthe fan)