Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

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Should the winner of the Teen Tournament be invited to participate in the Tournament of Champions?

Yes
30
42%
No
42
58%
 
Total votes: 72

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JayK33
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by JayK33 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:45 am

I'm interested to see what others think of a Teen ToC like I described if it were to happen. I think it'd be a good event to substitute their spots in main ToCs.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by Kingrat47 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:25 am

JayK33 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:45 am
I'm interested to see what others think of a Teen ToC like I described if it were to happen. I think it'd be a good event to substitute their spots in main ToCs.
I think, in lieu of the Teen Tournament winner getting a spot in the TOC, this would be a good idea. What I want to see is some connection between the Teen Tournament and the rest of Jeopardy. It's just kind of weird to have a competitive tournament that connects to nothing else. Sure, the Teen champ would likely lose most years, but they'd be able to say they got a shot, which would be a thrill, and some years, we'd have a March Madness-esque Cinderella run.

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triviawayne
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by triviawayne » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:31 am

twelvefootboy wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:34 pm
RobW wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:57 pm
twelvefootboy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:55 am
For entertainment purposes, it might make a better game with a natural underdog to root for. But what do we if a boardie (RobW) plays against an adorable teenager?
Oh you cheer for the underdog, no question!

(I submitted a yes for this poll, but I'd say the same even without my vested interest... let 'em have a shot!)
As usual, a classy response from you. :)

As I've picked up more counterpoints from the board here, I don't see a way to reconcile the timing issue unless you are willing to have 2 teenagers when the TOC is 2 years apart. There is a point of view I haven't seen - in some ways, the teen champion has beaten 14 competitors, whereas a 5 day champ only faces 10 of them. It's a stretch analogy for sure. Another insight is that the teen wouldn't really bump anyone, it would just close the cycle sooner so you wouldn't have to wait such an interminable length of time as an early qualifier. You must be suffering from preparation fatigue by now.

I won't change my original (negative) vote, but now I'm all in - bring in the celebs and the pets and their children!

A tournament winner has not beaten 14 competitors, they did not beat the players they didn't play, those players were beat by others who the winner may or may not have even faced. It is entirely possible for a tournament winner to only win one game yet win the tournament.
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by twelvefootboy » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:34 am

triviawayne wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:31 am
twelvefootboy wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:34 pm
RobW wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:57 pm
twelvefootboy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:55 am
For entertainment purposes, it might make a better game with a natural underdog to root for. But what do we if a boardie (RobW) plays against an adorable teenager?
Oh you cheer for the underdog, no question!

(I submitted a yes for this poll, but I'd say the same even without my vested interest... let 'em have a shot!)
As usual, a classy response from you. :)

As I've picked up more counterpoints from the board here, I don't see a way to reconcile the timing issue unless you are willing to have 2 teenagers when the TOC is 2 years apart. There is a point of view I haven't seen - in some ways, the teen champion has beaten 14 competitors, whereas a 5 day champ only faces 10 of them. It's a stretch analogy for sure. Another insight is that the teen wouldn't really bump anyone, it would just close the cycle sooner so you wouldn't have to wait such an interminable length of time as an early qualifier. You must be suffering from preparation fatigue by now.

I won't change my original (negative) vote, but now I'm all in - bring in the celebs and the pets and their children!

A tournament winner has not beaten 14 competitors, they did not beat the players they didn't play, those players were beat by others who the winner may or may not have even faced. It is entirely possible for a tournament winner to only win one game yet win the tournament.
The phrasing "in some ways", and "stretch analogy" deliberately accommodates obvious and implied counterpoints.
The single win is a good example, but more relevant is that it only takes four solid games to prevail in a tourney. You usually can't have an off day and continue a winning streak - but it does happen. Lots of streaks have continued from second place going into FJ.
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kristinsausville
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by kristinsausville » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:56 am

No. Having played in a ToC, I think the emotional stakes are much higher than they are during regular gameplay. You could have a teen who swept their tournament and then more likely than not would lose for the first time in the ToC. Those losses can be harder, and I'm not sure teens have the emotional capability to cope with that very well.

It's not a "no kids allowed" thing, I think it's a legitimate question about brain development. The college students are more likely to have life experience dealing with major disappointments (maybe not getting into some colleges to which they applied?) so I'm fine with them being included.
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by bibliophage » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:38 pm

I don't support an automatic entry into the ToC for the Teen champion, but I do think they should have some mechanism to advance. How about a special qualifying game to fill the 15th spot to be held on the Friday before the ToC starts. It might be Teen champ vs. Teacher champ vs. College champ. Or if you think the Teacher and College champs should be invited automatically, maybe Teen champ vs. the two regular-season players who just missed the cutoff.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by StevenH » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:08 pm

I should add that I do think that teen champions should be considered for super tournaments. They sometimes are, but none of the post-Chacko George Teen Tournament winners was considered for the BotD tournament. I can't imagine that any of them would have been picked, but they should have been able to send a video and they should have been included in the ToC yearbook. And who knows, if one of them had made a cool video then maybe they could have at least been put up as one of the five who was up for the vote for the final spot in their decade.

Kristin brings up a good point, too. I agree with Mark that the teens were at least fun to watch in the ToC, but I have to wonder if any of them ever took the competition hard while behind the scenes.

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leszekp
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by leszekp » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:02 pm

Andrew Westney was a Teen Tournament winner, and played in the 80s BOTD (in my match). He was fully competitive; granted, this was about 23 years after his Teen appearance. April McManus was also a Teen Tournament winner in 1991, and made it to the semi-finals of the TOC in 1992 (again, in my match); she was fully competitive even then. She made it to round 4 of the UTOC in 2005.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by seaborgium » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:31 pm

leszekp wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:02 pm
Andrew Westney was a Teen Tournament winner, and played in the 80s BOTD (in my match). He was fully competitive; granted, this was about 23 years after his Teen appearance. April McManus was also a Teen Tournament winner in 1991, and made it to the semi-finals of the TOC in 1992 (again, in my match); she was fully competitive even then. She made it to round 4 of the UTOC in 2005.
April made it to round 3; round 4 was Jerome, Frank, Pam, Brad, Chris, and John. (I believe John beat her in round 3.)

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by jeff6286 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:39 pm

I think it's not necessary to put them in the TOC every year, but it would be sad if they never got to play Jeopardy! again, especially for those that never lost a game. The UTOC feels like a good compromise, all of the Teen winners from the show's first 20 years had a chance to give it another shot. I'd be on board with another UTOC-ish tournament around 2024, or whenever Alex is going to retire, and letting all of the teen winners from 2005 on have a shot as well. I'd also be on board with, as many have suggested, a teen reunion tournament, maybe once there are 15 Teen champions post-UTOC bring them all back and have a standard two week 15 player tourney for a quarter million or so and a spot in the next TOC.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by boson » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:33 am

bibliophage wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:38 pm
I don't support an automatic entry into the ToC for the Teen champion, but I do think they should have some mechanism to advance. How about a special qualifying game to fill the 15th spot to be held on the Friday before the ToC starts. It might be Teen champ vs. Teacher champ vs. College champ. Or if you think the Teacher and College champs should be invited automatically, maybe Teen champ vs. the two regular-season players who just missed the cutoff.
That seems reasonable, except that we have had Teachers win the TOC and college champs go to the final (I think? Not looking it up right now. At least they get to the semis often). Having them 'play in' devalues their achievements.

You could expand the field with two more regular- play contestants to play against the teen champ, but that is just making the TOC bigger.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by boson » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:35 am

kristinsausville wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:56 am
No. Having played in a ToC, I think the emotional stakes are much higher than they are during regular gameplay. You could have a teen who swept their tournament and then more likely than not would lose for the first time in the ToC. Those losses can be harder, and I'm not sure teens have the emotional capability to cope with that very well.

It's not a "no kids allowed" thing, I think it's a legitimate question about brain development. The college students are more likely to have life experience dealing with major disappointments (maybe not getting into some colleges to which they applied?) so I'm fine with them being included.
There are teen Olympians and some high school sports are bigger than Jeopardy in popularity. I think high excelling teens can and do handle the pressure.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by rmfromfla » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:59 am

Cue the first College Champ in 1989, Tom Cubbage, who later on that year went on to bigger and better things... 8-)

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RobW
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by RobW » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:12 pm

twelvefootboy wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:34 pm
RobW wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:57 pm
twelvefootboy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:55 am
For entertainment purposes, it might make a better game with a natural underdog to root for. But what do we if a boardie (RobW) plays against an adorable teenager?
Oh you cheer for the underdog, no question!

(I submitted a yes for this poll, but I'd say the same even without my vested interest... let 'em have a shot!)
As usual, a classy response from you. :)
:oops:
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:)
twelvefootboy wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:34 pm
Another insight is that the teen wouldn't really bump anyone, it would just close the cycle sooner so you wouldn't have to wait such an interminable length of time as an early qualifier. You must be suffering from preparation fatigue by now.
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JayK33
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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by JayK33 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:38 pm

Here's the thread I put together recounting how all Teen (and College and Teacher so far) Champs ended up doing in their ToCs. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4941

Yes, none made the finals, and only one (if I counted correctly) led heading into FJ, but of the 14 that participated (if I got them all), eight made semis and six didn't. Almost even but it's cool to have the better side have the edge.

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Re: Should the Teen Tournament Winner Get a TOC Invite?

Post by MDaunt » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:29 pm

Absolutely, yes. Amanda Goad was in my TOC and very nearly made the final. There's no good reason to exclude them that I can see.

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