So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

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akrites
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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by akrites » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:36 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:54 am
akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:25 am
triviawayne wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:00 pm
ACW wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:54 pm
ObrienP wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:03 pm


Well, they want Alex to finish the question. Jeopardy is an entertainment show for the audience first, and trivia contest second. If it is not entertaining for the viewing audience, the show ceases to exist.
Eh, fair enough.
I'll put another spin on this: if you could buzz in as soon as the clue is revealed, many players would simply try and do just that since many of the players on the show can get between 40-50 or more correct every show. In that case, you still have a game of fastest buzzers, but now it plays out very differently.
Why don't people do that anyway? I suspect that many contestants can't process the questions before the lights flash and they don't know if they know the answer to the question or not. Most people are risk averse and so they don't try to buzz in (especially once they miss a q or 2) every time.
First of all, they must time the lighting of the lights, second, the average player only needs about three seconds per clue.
If that's the case, why look at the question at all? Just focus on the lights and process the question after you buzz in.

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by OntarioQuizzer » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:13 pm

akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:36 pm

If that's the case, why look at the question at all? Just focus on the lights and process the question after you buzz in.
Assume that you're the only person playing this strategy. If you're going with "shoot first, ask questions later", your opponents are more likely to "stay clam" on clues that are: a) harder; b) worth more money. Thus, you are more likely to get in first on clues that you yourself are more likely to get wrong, as well as clues that stand to cost you more money. Moreover, your opponent might have been hesitant because they had it down to two possibilities, and your neg just made them a great deal more sure that they were correct, so they'll pick up a rebound.

Remember, the way the game is set up, even if you get the $400, $800, $1200, and $1600 clues in a category, a rebounded neg on $2000 brings an opponent level to you.

Even if you manage to get in first 35 times, 25 correct/10 incorrect is not going to win as many games as you think it will.
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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by morbeedo » Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:38 pm

I love all the breathless reporting about James bankrupting Jeopardy! I suppose if he keeps going and going they could up the difficulty of the clues to limit his earnings. But legally, I don’t think they can decide to retire him if he really maxes out the bank, can they? Suppose they could just start charging advertisers more to offset the payout. I wonder, though, post-James- and eventually post-Alex- would they want to bring back the 5-day limit?

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by akrites » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:23 pm

morbeedo wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:38 pm
I love all the breathless reporting about James bankrupting Jeopardy! I suppose if he keeps going and going they could up the difficulty of the clues to limit his earnings. But legally, I don’t think they can decide to retire him if he really maxes out the bank, can they? Suppose they could just start charging advertisers more to offset the payout. I wonder, though, post-James- and eventually post-Alex- would they want to bring back the 5-day limit?
Is there a contract that says they have to bring the winner back at all?

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by hbomb1947 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:32 pm

akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:23 pm
morbeedo wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:38 pm
I love all the breathless reporting about James bankrupting Jeopardy! I suppose if he keeps going and going they could up the difficulty of the clues to limit his earnings. But legally, I don’t think they can decide to retire him if he really maxes out the bank, can they? Suppose they could just start charging advertisers more to offset the payout. I wonder, though, post-James- and eventually post-Alex- would they want to bring back the 5-day limit?
Is there a contract that says they have to bring the winner back at all?
There obviously wasn't one in 500 Questions.
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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by triviawayne » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:24 pm

OntarioQuizzer wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:13 pm
akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:36 pm

If that's the case, why look at the question at all? Just focus on the lights and process the question after you buzz in.
Assume that you're the only person playing this strategy. If you're going with "shoot first, ask questions later", your opponents are more likely to "stay clam" on clues that are: a) harder; b) worth more money. Thus, you are more likely to get in first on clues that you yourself are more likely to get wrong, as well as clues that stand to cost you more money. Moreover, your opponent might have been hesitant because they had it down to two possibilities, and your neg just made them a great deal more sure that they were correct, so they'll pick up a rebound.

Remember, the way the game is set up, even if you get the $400, $800, $1200, and $1600 clues in a category, a rebounded neg on $2000 brings an opponent level to you.

Even if you manage to get in first 35 times, 25 correct/10 incorrect is not going to win as many games as you think it will.
Plus why lose the time to think about it while the question is being read? And if you’re waiting for the lights to go on, you lose the buzzer race
Total game show career losings = $171,522

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by davey » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:45 pm

Jeopardy Wasn’t Designed for a Contestant Like James Holzhauer
“James’s performance, I’m sure, is causing grief for an accountant somewhere."


https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme ... ow/587668/

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by akrites » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:34 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:24 pm
OntarioQuizzer wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:13 pm
akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:36 pm

If that's the case, why look at the question at all? Just focus on the lights and process the question after you buzz in.
Assume that you're the only person playing this strategy. If you're going with "shoot first, ask questions later", your opponents are more likely to "stay clam" on clues that are: a) harder; b) worth more money. Thus, you are more likely to get in first on clues that you yourself are more likely to get wrong, as well as clues that stand to cost you more money. Moreover, your opponent might have been hesitant because they had it down to two possibilities, and your neg just made them a great deal more sure that they were correct, so they'll pick up a rebound.

Remember, the way the game is set up, even if you get the $400, $800, $1200, and $1600 clues in a category, a rebounded neg on $2000 brings an opponent level to you.

Even if you manage to get in first 35 times, 25 correct/10 incorrect is not going to win as many games as you think it will.
Plus why lose the time to think about it while the question is being read? And if you’re waiting for the lights to go on, you lose the buzzer race
The light, if I understand correctly, it the ultimate arbiter of when one can buzz in. So if the sole goal was to buzz in first for every question, maybe the strategy would be to read the last 3 words of the clue and just watch the light.

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by triviawayne » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:58 pm

akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:34 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:24 pm
OntarioQuizzer wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:13 pm
akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:36 pm

If that's the case, why look at the question at all? Just focus on the lights and process the question after you buzz in.
Assume that you're the only person playing this strategy. If you're going with "shoot first, ask questions later", your opponents are more likely to "stay clam" on clues that are: a) harder; b) worth more money. Thus, you are more likely to get in first on clues that you yourself are more likely to get wrong, as well as clues that stand to cost you more money. Moreover, your opponent might have been hesitant because they had it down to two possibilities, and your neg just made them a great deal more sure that they were correct, so they'll pick up a rebound.

Remember, the way the game is set up, even if you get the $400, $800, $1200, and $1600 clues in a category, a rebounded neg on $2000 brings an opponent level to you.

Even if you manage to get in first 35 times, 25 correct/10 incorrect is not going to win as many games as you think it will.
Plus why lose the time to think about it while the question is being read? And if you’re waiting for the lights to go on, you lose the buzzer race
The light, if I understand correctly, it the ultimate arbiter of when one can buzz in. So if the sole goal was to buzz in first for every question, maybe the strategy would be to read the last 3 words of the clue and just watch the light.

You seriously think that’s what anyone has ever done?
Total game show career losings = $171,522

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by akrites » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:02 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:58 pm
akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:34 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:24 pm
OntarioQuizzer wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:13 pm
akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:36 pm

If that's the case, why look at the question at all? Just focus on the lights and process the question after you buzz in.
Assume that you're the only person playing this strategy. If you're going with "shoot first, ask questions later", your opponents are more likely to "stay clam" on clues that are: a) harder; b) worth more money. Thus, you are more likely to get in first on clues that you yourself are more likely to get wrong, as well as clues that stand to cost you more money. Moreover, your opponent might have been hesitant because they had it down to two possibilities, and your neg just made them a great deal more sure that they were correct, so they'll pick up a rebound.

Remember, the way the game is set up, even if you get the $400, $800, $1200, and $1600 clues in a category, a rebounded neg on $2000 brings an opponent level to you.

Even if you manage to get in first 35 times, 25 correct/10 incorrect is not going to win as many games as you think it will.
Plus why lose the time to think about it while the question is being read? And if you’re waiting for the lights to go on, you lose the buzzer race
The light, if I understand correctly, it the ultimate arbiter of when one can buzz in. So if the sole goal was to buzz in first for every question, maybe the strategy would be to read the last 3 words of the clue and just watch the light.

You seriously think that’s what anyone has ever done?
I think it would be a good strategy for someone who had superlative knowledge but subpar reaction time.

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by triviawayne » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:58 pm

akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:02 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:58 pm
akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:34 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:24 pm
OntarioQuizzer wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:13 pm


Assume that you're the only person playing this strategy. If you're going with "shoot first, ask questions later", your opponents are more likely to "stay clam" on clues that are: a) harder; b) worth more money. Thus, you are more likely to get in first on clues that you yourself are more likely to get wrong, as well as clues that stand to cost you more money. Moreover, your opponent might have been hesitant because they had it down to two possibilities, and your neg just made them a great deal more sure that they were correct, so they'll pick up a rebound.

Remember, the way the game is set up, even if you get the $400, $800, $1200, and $1600 clues in a category, a rebounded neg on $2000 brings an opponent level to you.

Even if you manage to get in first 35 times, 25 correct/10 incorrect is not going to win as many games as you think it will.
Plus why lose the time to think about it while the question is being read? And if you’re waiting for the lights to go on, you lose the buzzer race
The light, if I understand correctly, it the ultimate arbiter of when one can buzz in. So if the sole goal was to buzz in first for every question, maybe the strategy would be to read the last 3 words of the clue and just watch the light.

You seriously think that’s what anyone has ever done?
I think it would be a good strategy for someone who had superlative knowledge but subpar reaction time.
If their reaction time is subpar, they will lose anyway
Total game show career losings = $171,522

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by squarekara » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:16 am

akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:36 pm
If that's the case, why look at the question at all? Just focus on the lights and process the question after you buzz in.
I wouldn't recommend it.
Show

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by akrites » Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:34 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:58 pm
akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:02 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:58 pm
akrites wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:34 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:24 pm


Plus why lose the time to think about it while the question is being read? And if you’re waiting for the lights to go on, you lose the buzzer race
The light, if I understand correctly, it the ultimate arbiter of when one can buzz in. So if the sole goal was to buzz in first for every question, maybe the strategy would be to read the last 3 words of the clue and just watch the light.

You seriously think that’s what anyone has ever done?
I think it would be a good strategy for someone who had superlative knowledge but subpar reaction time.
If their reaction time is subpar, they will lose anyway
Does anyone know of any good builds to model the J! buzzer system for practice purposes?

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by Peter the accountant » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:27 pm

One thing I have learned is that the bottom clues are not necessarily that much harder than the top. I haven't been keeping formal track of them, but I'm finding that part of the difficulty at the bottom is my own mental state - thinking that they're going to be harder. If I think the clue is hard, then it will be. Being forced to look at the bottom first has made me look at those clues slightly differently.

One other thing I've noticed in James' game play is that he's always moving on to the next clue. As soon as Alex says he's right he starts calling for the next clue - even to the point of talking over Alex. That keeps the pace of the game up and gives opponents little time to rest. He doesn't waste time thinking about where to go - just start at the bottom and move across as quickly as possible in the J! round, or start in the middle and move across (hunting for the DDs) in the DJ! round.
--Peter

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by CasketRomance » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:15 pm

Peter the accountant wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:27 pm
One thing I have learned is that the bottom clues are not necessarily that much harder than the top. I haven't been keeping formal track of them, but I'm finding that part of the difficulty at the bottom is my own mental state - thinking that they're going to be harder. If I think the clue is hard, then it will be. Being forced to look at the bottom first has made me look at those clues slightly differently.

One other thing I've noticed in James' game play is that he's always moving on to the next clue. As soon as Alex says he's right he starts calling for the next clue - even to the point of talking over Alex. That keeps the pace of the game up and gives opponents little time to rest. He doesn't waste time thinking about where to go - just start at the bottom and move across as quickly as possible in the J! round, or start in the middle and move across (hunting for the DDs) in the DJ! round.
sounds like that matt jackson dude

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by CasketRomance » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:20 pm

apparently sportsbooks are getting into the hype

bovada had lines of

o/u 24.5 games won -120 juice for both sides

will he beat jennings' record games won streak....no at -900 and yes at +500

will he beat jennings $2,520,700 mark no -220, yes +155

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by akrites » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:06 pm

CasketRomance wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:20 pm
apparently sportsbooks are getting into the hype

bovada had lines of

o/u 24.5 games won -120 juice for both sides

will he beat jennings' record games won streak....no at -900 and yes at +500

will he beat jennings $2,520,700 mark no -220, yes +155
So James fanboys could win pretty big.

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by ouachiouat » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:39 pm

CasketRomance wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:20 pm
apparently sportsbooks are getting into the hype

bovada had lines of

o/u 24.5 games won -120 juice for both sides

will he beat jennings' record games won streak....no at -900 and yes at +500

will he beat jennings $2,520,700 mark no -220, yes +155
Seems like a bad idea for Bovada and any other books that may be taking action on this. Presumably people who were in the audence for various tapings would know if he actually passed 25/74/2.5 M or not and could make large bets on that side accordingly.

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by triviawayne » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:46 pm

ouachiouat wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:39 pm
CasketRomance wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:20 pm
apparently sportsbooks are getting into the hype

bovada had lines of

o/u 24.5 games won -120 juice for both sides

will he beat jennings' record games won streak....no at -900 and yes at +500

will he beat jennings $2,520,700 mark no -220, yes +155
Seems like a bad idea for Bovada and any other books that may be taking action on this. Presumably people who were in the audence for various tapings would know if he actually passed 25/74/2.5 M or not and could make large bets on that side accordingly.
I would expect James will be getting in on the action
Total game show career losings = $171,522

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Re: So...what have we learned so far from James Holzhauer?

Post by floridagator » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:21 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:46 pm
ouachiouat wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:39 pm
CasketRomance wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:20 pm
apparently sportsbooks are getting into the hype

bovada had lines of

o/u 24.5 games won -120 juice for both sides

will he beat jennings' record games won streak....no at -900 and yes at +500

will he beat jennings $2,520,700 mark no -220, yes +155
Seems like a bad idea for Bovada and any other books that may be taking action on this. Presumably people who were in the audence for various tapings would know if he actually passed 25/74/2.5 M or not and could make large bets on that side accordingly.
I would expect James will be getting in on the action
Then will he be banned from baseball for life?
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