Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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MarkBarrett
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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by MarkBarrett » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:37 am

Newhausen wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:27 pm
Roland wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:01 pm
MarkBarrett wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:03 pm
jeopardyfan939 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:51 pm
Being this is the first post-Holzhauer game, did Emma or any of the challengers implement any of James' strategies (e.g. aggressive DD/FJ wagering, Forrest Bounce)?
Read the 4th post.
I am genuinely entertained at the amount of words you waste transcribing an episode that we've all seen, compared to the amount of words you are willing to spend helping someone who is asking a question.

jeopardyfan, the "4th post" doesn't really answer your question, except to say that she did a TDD in single jeopardy.
I think the "bottoms up" mention after Bible Books was supposed to indicate that they were still playing the board bottom-to-top, which does help answer the question, but it wasn't spelled out as clearly as it could have been.
Points taken, I do understand. I'll try to do better the next time I respond to a question or just let it go for someone else to answer if I'm not digging the question itself.

Thank you as well for the posts that supported my typical opening summary remarks. I did read and appreciate them. Yes, Monday was ridiculous in length although that was a game with special circumstances.

"episode we've all seen"? I typically post around 8:15 ish so it's probably a low count of viewers with the Montgomery, AL method or other ways of seeing the game ahead of local airing. My thinking is there are a group of early birds that have not seen the game yet though don't mind checking in ahead of time to see what has happened.

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by MarkBarrett » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:43 am

I promise, last post until I add another game to the Archive.

An FotB (friend of the board) shared some research with me about the FJ! clue from this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/opin ... -time.html

The French were actually on Greenwich Mean Time (now called Coordinated Universal Time) as recently as 1940. There were a series of time-zone switches during World War II as Germany occupied part of France, but after the war was over, France was supposed to return to Greenwich Mean Time in 1945. Alas, for reasons that are not altogether clear, the French government canceled that decision at the last moment and has remained on Central European Time ever since.

If a contestant had guessed France is there a clear cut judging path why it would be wrong?

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Peter the accountant » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:53 am

jeopardyfan939 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:51 pm
Being this is the first post-Holzhauer game, did Emma or any of the challengers implement any of James' strategies (e.g. aggressive DD/FJ wagering, Forrest Bounce)?
Seeing as no one actually answered your question, yes. There were definitely elements of James' strategy present in this game. The game play was very roughly bottom up, categories changed frequently, and there was definitely some DD hunting in the DJ! round. The DD wagers were not wimpy.

But I did find it interesting that Emma chose to stick with a single category for her first 5 picks, running a category from the bottom up to start the J! round.

That got me thinking about tweaks to James' strategy. I'd describe his basic J! round strategy as accumulating money quickly before hunting for the DD so that you can maximize your funds available to wager on that DD. So what if you get an oddball category, like Vowelless Bible Books, which is unlikely to have the DD and you're really good at that one? Why not clear it out to add to the bankroll for the DD? As an argument against that, you are giving your opponents more opportunities to ring in ahead of you. They are going to beat you to the buzzer some percentage of the time.
--Peter

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by nserven » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:09 pm

Peter the accountant wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:53 am
But I did find it interesting that Emma chose to stick with a single category for her first 5 picks, running a category from the bottom up to start the J! round.
I think that was the first time in a long while we heard applause for running a category. James probably "ran" a few, but never in the traditional way, so it never got acknowledged on the show.

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Woof » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:10 pm

MarkBarrett wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:43 am
I promise, last post until I add another game to the Archive.

An FotB (friend of the board) shared some research with me about the FJ! clue from this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/opin ... -time.html

The French were actually on Greenwich Mean Time (now called Coordinated Universal Time) as recently as 1940. There were a series of time-zone switches during World War II as Germany occupied part of France, but after the war was over, France was supposed to return to Greenwich Mean Time in 1945. Alas, for reasons that are not altogether clear, the French government canceled that decision at the last moment and has remained on Central European Time ever since.

If a contestant had guessed France is there a clear cut judging path why it would be wrong?
Good question. As I answered France to that FJ, I am perhaps biased in judging, but I'd say that anyone who answered that might be invited back after due consideration.

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by LucarioSnooperVixey » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:17 pm

57 R (Missed Gordon Lightfoot and Lonely Island.)
DD: 3/3
FJ: :mrgreen:
LT: Ho Chi Minh, National Geographic Society, Over the Hills, Chug-A-Lug, Christopher Cross, Martha Washington, (Clover)

It is so nice to have a long list of LT's again. :D
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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by TheSunWillComeOut » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:24 pm

Peter the accountant wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:53 am
jeopardyfan939 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:51 pm
Being this is the first post-Holzhauer game, did Emma or any of the challengers implement any of James' strategies (e.g. aggressive DD/FJ wagering, Forrest Bounce)?
Seeing as no one actually answered your question, yes. There were definitely elements of James' strategy present in this game. The game play was very roughly bottom up, categories changed frequently, and there was definitely some DD hunting in the DJ! round. The DD wagers were not wimpy.

But I did find it interesting that Emma chose to stick with a single category for her first 5 picks, running a category from the bottom up to start the J! round.

That got me thinking about tweaks to James' strategy. I'd describe his basic J! round strategy as accumulating money quickly before hunting for the DD so that you can maximize your funds available to wager on that DD. So what if you get an oddball category, like Vowelless Bible Books, which is unlikely to have the DD and you're really good at that one? Why not clear it out to add to the bankroll for the DD? As an argument against that, you are giving your opponents more opportunities to ring in ahead of you. They are going to beat you to the buzzer some percentage of the time.
It seems odd to speak of tactics like Forrest Bouncing and aggressive wagering as "James's strategy" when they've been part of the traditional toolbox of long-running J! champs for decades now. Anyone who's done their research before going on the show knows that's the optimal way to play, regardless of whether they choose to implement it. It reminds me of when all those articles were going on about Arthur Chu "breaking Jeopardy!" just for category-bouncing. Nothing new under the sun, etc.

The deliberate bankroll accumulation mentioned here is the only tactic that can be said to be a true "James signature move." Others have tried, but it's a strategy that requires the contestant to maintain consistent control of the board to work, which is rare in its own right given that it involves giving correct responses to most bottom-row clues AND ringing in first nearly every time. Those massive wagers arguably deserve inclusion as well, but in the end, they're inextricable from that other element of his gameplay, because he wouldn't be in a position to put up figures like that had he not done the high-value roll-up beforehand.

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Volante » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:06 pm

Woof wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:10 pm
MarkBarrett wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:43 am
I promise, last post until I add another game to the Archive.

An FotB (friend of the board) shared some research with me about the FJ! clue from this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/opin ... -time.html

The French were actually on Greenwich Mean Time (now called Coordinated Universal Time) as recently as 1940. There were a series of time-zone switches during World War II as Germany occupied part of France, but after the war was over, France was supposed to return to Greenwich Mean Time in 1945. Alas, for reasons that are not altogether clear, the French government canceled that decision at the last moment and has remained on Central European Time ever since.

If a contestant had guessed France is there a clear cut judging path why it would be wrong?

Good question. As I answered France to that FJ, I am perhaps biased in judging, but I'd say that anyone who answered that might be invited back after due consideration.
The use of 'still' in the clue leads me to believe the country in question hasn't changed their time zone since 1940. Since France fiddled with their time zone post 1940, even if they reverted back, it rules France out.

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:32 pm

TheSunWillComeOut wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:24 pm
It seems odd to speak of tactics like Forrest Bouncing and aggressive wagering as "James's strategy" when they've been part of the traditional toolbox of long-running J! champs for decades now. Anyone who's done their research before going on the show knows that's the optimal way to play, regardless of whether they choose to implement it. It reminds me of when all those articles were going on about Arthur Chu "breaking Jeopardy!" just for category-bouncing. Nothing new under the sun, etc.

The deliberate bankroll accumulation mentioned here is the only tactic that can be said to be a true "James signature move." Others have tried, but it's a strategy that requires the contestant to maintain consistent control of the board to work, which is rare in its own right given that it involves giving correct responses to most bottom-row clues AND ringing in first nearly every time. Those massive wagers arguably deserve inclusion as well, but in the end, they're inextricable from that other element of his gameplay, because he wouldn't be in a position to put up figures like that had he not done the high-value roll-up beforehand.
Where is that damn "like" button?

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alietr » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:04 pm

Robert K S wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:32 pm
Where is that damn "like" button?
There is an extension to add that (but is still considered to be 'in devlopment') ...

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:32 pm

TheSunWillComeOut wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:24 pm
The deliberate bankroll accumulation mentioned here is the only tactic that can be said to be a true "James signature move." Others have tried, but it's a strategy that requires the contestant to maintain consistent control of the board to work, which is rare in its own right given that it involves giving correct responses to most bottom-row clues AND ringing in first nearly every time. Those massive wagers arguably deserve inclusion as well, but in the end, they're inextricable from that other element of his gameplay, because he wouldn't be in a position to put up figures like that had he not done the high-value roll-up beforehand.
Totally agree and I think a lot of the stories about James really missed this point. It's not that he discovered a strategy no one thought of before. It's that he was actually able to execute this strategy. It's something probably only a handful of other J! contestants would have been able to pull off successfully.

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by TheSunWillComeOut » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:25 pm

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:32 pm
TheSunWillComeOut wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:24 pm
The deliberate bankroll accumulation mentioned here is the only tactic that can be said to be a true "James signature move." Others have tried, but it's a strategy that requires the contestant to maintain consistent control of the board to work, which is rare in its own right given that it involves giving correct responses to most bottom-row clues AND ringing in first nearly every time. Those massive wagers arguably deserve inclusion as well, but in the end, they're inextricable from that other element of his gameplay, because he wouldn't be in a position to put up figures like that had he not done the high-value roll-up beforehand.
Totally agree and I think a lot of the stories about James really missed this point. It's not that he discovered a strategy no one thought of before. It's that he was actually able to execute this strategy. It's something probably only a handful of other J! contestants would have been able to pull off successfully.
This is why I've been rolling my eyes at the "JAMES HAS CHANGED JEOPARDY! FOREVER" articles. What we ARE going to see is more contestants who go in with the intention of playing like him, and quickly realize that they don't have the buzzer timing/raw knowledge to pull it off, or get a sobering dose of how many of their opponents are also sharks ready for a feeding frenzy. I envisioned "snaking" across the bottom row, too - not for a deliberate bankroll, that didn't even occur to me, but just as a show of dominance. Figured out by the practice session that I wasn't strong enough, and that the signaling device was not my enemy but also not my friend. I stuck to DD hunting and that worked out well enough for me.

If anyone in the Pool reading this has fantasies in which you're chewing up the board as other contestants look on in horror, you gotta ask yourself whether you're hovering near the top of your A Rundle in LL or the World Quizzing Championships year after year, and if you're not, you better start training for this show like you're in a martial-arts film until you get to that level, because otherwise I can tell you that right now that you are not the next James Holzhauer.

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by floridagator » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:52 pm

Perhaps this isn't the appropriate place for this question, but when I was at the contestant interview, the woman in charge (Maggie?) made a point of saying that Ken Jennings's record will never be broken. How could she know that? Why would she say it so boldly? What does she know that we don't know?
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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by bomtr » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:53 pm

I'm curious though; aside from the fact that Spain is the answer, is there some detail that eliminates Emma's--and my--response of Norway from consideration?

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:57 pm

bomtr wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:53 pm
I'm curious though; aside from the fact that Spain is the answer, is there some detail that eliminates Emma's--and my--response of Norway from consideration?
I would assume the implication was that it would be a country that would not normally be on GMT+1 due to its location with respect to Germany. Since Norway and Germany are at approximately the same longitude it would remove Norway from consideration.

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Volante » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:06 pm

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:57 pm
bomtr wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:53 pm
I'm curious though; aside from the fact that Spain is the answer, is there some detail that eliminates Emma's--and my--response of Norway from consideration?
I would assume the implication was that it would be a country that would not normally be on GMT+1 due to its location with respect to Germany. Since Norway and Germany are at approximately the same longitude it would remove Norway from consideration.
Norway didn't change its timezone in 1940; it has always been on GMT+1 since set in 1895.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Norway

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:09 pm

Volante wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:06 pm
This Is Kirk! wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:57 pm
bomtr wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:53 pm
I'm curious though; aside from the fact that Spain is the answer, is there some detail that eliminates Emma's--and my--response of Norway from consideration?
I would assume the implication was that it would be a country that would not normally be on GMT+1 due to its location with respect to Germany. Since Norway and Germany are at approximately the same longitude it would remove Norway from consideration.
Norway didn't change its timezone in 1940; it has always been on GMT+1 since set in 1895.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Norway
I think bomtr understands that Norway isn't the answer because of that, he's asking what in the clue was intended to guide one away from answering Norway, and that's what I was attempting to explain. The idea was it was a country that wouldn't normally be in GMT+1 due to its longitude. Norway would be, Spain would not.

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by OrangeSAM » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:14 pm

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:09 pm
Volante wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:06 pm
This Is Kirk! wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:57 pm
bomtr wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:53 pm
I'm curious though; aside from the fact that Spain is the answer, is there some detail that eliminates Emma's--and my--response of Norway from consideration?
I would assume the implication was that it would be a country that would not normally be on GMT+1 due to its location with respect to Germany. Since Norway and Germany are at approximately the same longitude it would remove Norway from consideration.
Norway didn't change its timezone in 1940; it has always been on GMT+1 since set in 1895.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Norway
I think bomtr understands that Norway isn't the answer because of that, he's asking what in the clue was intended to guide one away from answering Norway, and that's what I was attempting to explain. The idea was it was a country that wouldn't normally be in GMT+1 due to its longitude. Norway would be, Spain would not.
I'll give you some latitude there.
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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by bomtr » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:53 pm

Hmm, yeah, my mind's map had Norway a little further west than it is. I hate when that happens.

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Re: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:41 pm

TheSunWillComeOut wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:25 pm
If anyone in the Pool reading this has fantasies in which you're chewing up the board as other contestants look on in horror, you gotta ask yourself whether you're hovering near the top of your A Rundle in LL or the World Quizzing Championships year after year, and if you're not, you better start training for this show like you're in a martial-arts film until you get to that level, because otherwise I can tell you that right now that you are not the next James Holzhauer.
So, one 3-minute montage and I'm ready!

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