Quick Rules Q

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seaborgium
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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by seaborgium » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:41 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:47 pm
jeff6286 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:45 pm
There are no rules that anyone could read. Jesus Christ Wayne are you just willfully ignorant and trying to annoy everyone?
Are you really ignorant of the paperwork everyone who goes on the show receives, or just being a moron?
Sounds like you are (the former, I mean). The paperwork has nothing of the ins and outs of a game of Jeopardy.

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Mathew5000
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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by Mathew5000 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:19 pm

MinnesotaMyron wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:59 pm
jlgarfield wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:49 pm
http://j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=5234 - This early episode used a coin toss to determine who made the first selection of the DJ! round.
That is one heck of a memory you've got there. I'm quite certain though, 35 years along, they no longer do that.
That 1984-SEPT-28 game had been uploaded to dailymotion.com three years ago and was discussed in the "New Old Games" thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=637&start=2320#p210634
Bamaman wrote:
Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:11 pm
Alex said due to a tie for second going into DJ!, he flipped a coin during the break to determine who went first rather than picking whoever was closer to him. Sounds more fair to me.

He also said if there was a tie for second after FJ!, whoever led going into that round got the second place prize.
Another game in which the Jeopardy round ended in a tie for last place was Show #7419 - Thursday, December 8, 2016. One of the tied contestants, Anton Deljaj, posted on Reddit that the tiebreaking rule is not "leftmost tied player calls the first clue" as stated above, but "Since I had answered the last correct question between the two of us, the other contestant got to pick first in the second round." In this case either of the two rules would have led to the same conclusion: the player at the middle lectern selects first in DJ.

Similarly in the 2012 game that Volante referred to upthread: the returning champion (Beau) selects first under either rule, because he had given a correct response less recently than Sarah.

I suspect that Anton misunderstood, or misremembered, the reason for his opponent being the one to select first in DJ. Most likely Ontario Quizzer is correct (along with Wikipedia, as quoted in that Reddit thread). However, considering that a contestant who was in that exact situation has stated a different rule was applied, there is still some uncertainty. The "Game Rules" section of the official Jeopardy! website does not refer to this issue.

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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by seaborgium » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:31 pm

Mathew5000 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:19 pm
Another game in which the Jeopardy round ended in a tie for last place was Show #7419 - Thursday, December 8, 2016. One of the tied contestants, Anton Deljaj, posted on Reddit that the tiebreaking rule is not "leftmost tied player calls the first clue" as stated above, but "Since I had answered the last correct question between the two of us, the other contestant got to pick first in the second round." In this case either of the two rules would have led to the same conclusion: the player at the middle lectern selects first in DJ.

Similarly in the 2012 game that Volante referred to upthread: the returning champion (Beau) selects first under either rule, because he had given a correct response less recently than Sarah.

I suspect that Anton misunderstood, or misremembered, the reason for his opponent being the one to select first in DJ. Most likely Ontario Quizzer is correct (along with Wikipedia, as quoted in that Reddit thread). However, considering that a contestant who was in that exact situation has stated a different rule was applied, there is still some uncertainty. The "Game Rules" section of the official Jeopardy! website does not refer to this issue.
After a failed TDD in my second game I caught up to Sarah with my last get of the J! round, and I got first selection in DJ, so there's a counter to Anton's claim.

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jlgarfield
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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by jlgarfield » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:33 pm

Mathew5000 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:19 pm
MinnesotaMyron wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:59 pm
jlgarfield wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:49 pm
http://j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=5234 - This early episode used a coin toss to determine who made the first selection of the DJ! round.
That is one heck of a memory you've got there. I'm quite certain though, 35 years along, they no longer do that.
That 1984-SEPT-28 game had been uploaded to dailymotion.com three years ago and was discussed in the "New Old Games" thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=637&start=2320#p210634
Bamaman wrote:
Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:11 pm
Alex said due to a tie for second going into DJ!, he flipped a coin during the break to determine who went first rather than picking whoever was closer to him. Sounds more fair to me.

He also said if there was a tie for second after FJ!, whoever led going into that round got the second place prize.
Another game in which the Jeopardy round ended in a tie for last place was Show #7419 - Thursday, December 8, 2016. One of the tied contestants, Anton Deljaj, posted on Reddit that the tiebreaking rule is not "leftmost tied player calls the first clue" as stated above, but "Since I had answered the last correct question between the two of us, the other contestant got to pick first in the second round." In this case either of the two rules would have led to the same conclusion: the player at the middle lectern selects first in DJ.

Similarly in the 2012 game that Volante referred to upthread: the returning champion (Beau) selects first under either rule, because he had given a correct response less recently than Sarah.

I suspect that Anton misunderstood, or misremembered, the reason for his opponent being the one to select first in DJ. Most likely Ontario Quizzer is correct (along with Wikipedia, as quoted in that Reddit thread). However, considering that a contestant who was in that exact situation has stated a different rule was applied, there is still some uncertainty. The "Game Rules" section of the official Jeopardy! website does not refer to this issue.
On the note of the tie for second place for FJ!, I seem to remember that in the past, if there was a three-way tie for 0 in a semi-final game, then the player leading at the end of DJ! would go into the finals.

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econgator
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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by econgator » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:23 am

jlgarfield wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:33 pm
On the note of the tie for second place for FJ!, I seem to remember that in the past, if there was a three-way tie for 0 in a semi-final game, then the player leading at the end of DJ! would go into the finals.
Maybe as a wild card, if there were too many other zeros from the non-winners. Otherwise, I suspect they would have just 4 winners and 5 WCs.

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Mathew5000
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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by Mathew5000 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:51 am

seaborgium wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:31 pm
After a failed TDD in my second game I caught up to Sarah with my last get of the J! round, and I got first selection in DJ, so there's a counter to Anton's claim.
Thanks, that is good confirmation that Anton was mistaken. I wonder when they instituted that rule (instead of the coin toss they had in 1984).

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Robert K S
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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by Robert K S » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:57 am

Man, am I glad that was quick. I don't think I could stand another one of those threads where we discuss a rule that has been applied inconsistently over 35 years.

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Mathew5000
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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by Mathew5000 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:16 am

jlgarfield wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:33 pm
On the note of the tie for second place for FJ!, I seem to remember that in the past, if there was a three-way tie for 0 in a semi-final game, then the player leading at the end of DJ! would go into the finals.
You're talking about tournament play now? The rule that you are describing was mentioned in a "Jeopardy rules" document of uncertain provenance, quoted by Jeff6286 in 2011: viewtopic.php?p=11202#p11202

But if that was ever the rule for all three players finishing a semi-final game with a 0 score, then it had been changed by 2013: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1179

And after 2013, the rule was changed to have a tiebreaker round determine the winner, in the case of a three-way tie for 0 in a semi-final game: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2514

Updated to add: Jeff was quoting from a document written by Brian Dominy, a fan who had a web site called "The Jeopardy! Database of Champions". (The link is to a version online in 2007, saved by the Internet Wayback Machine.) He has been mentioned a few times on Jboard.

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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by MDaunt » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:52 am

jlgarfield wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:50 am
I've watched the show for many years, and I have a quick rules Q, and sorry if it may sound dumb: If there is a three-way tie at the start of Double Jeopardy!, then who gets to go first? The player closest to Alex, or do they draw numbers (I know that historically, for a two-way tie at the start of DJ!, a coin toss during the second break would be done to determine who made the first selection of the second round.)?
Go Riders.

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triviawayne
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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by triviawayne » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:35 am

seaborgium wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:41 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:47 pm
jeff6286 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:45 pm
There are no rules that anyone could read. Jesus Christ Wayne are you just willfully ignorant and trying to annoy everyone?
Are you really ignorant of the paperwork everyone who goes on the show receives, or just being a moron?
Sounds like you are (the former, I mean). The paperwork has nothing of the ins and outs of a game of Jeopardy.
you really think the sony law dept. & S&P are fine with a game show where the rules aren't available to the contestants???????? What friggin world are you living in????

If they aren't part of the paperwork specifically handed to each contestant, either within that paperwork or verbally, every contestant on every show is told they are allowed to ask for the printed rules. MSQ gave them to everyone once they got to a certain point prior to being "on the show", and while on the show any time there was an addendum to the rules, they were given to those of us on winners row and we had to sign a copy. WWTBAM verbally told us prior to coming to tape where we could get the rules.

If you are on a show and you choose to ignore these instructions, well that's a you problem.
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seaborgium
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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by seaborgium » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:30 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:35 am
seaborgium wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:41 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:47 pm
jeff6286 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:45 pm
There are no rules that anyone could read. Jesus Christ Wayne are you just willfully ignorant and trying to annoy everyone?
Are you really ignorant of the paperwork everyone who goes on the show receives, or just being a moron?
Sounds like you are (the former, I mean). The paperwork has nothing of the ins and outs of a game of Jeopardy.
you really think the sony law dept. & S&P are fine with a game show where the rules aren't available to the contestants???????? What friggin world are you living in????

If they aren't part of the paperwork specifically handed to each contestant, either within that paperwork or verbally, every contestant on every show is told they are allowed to ask for the printed rules. MSQ gave them to everyone once they got to a certain point prior to being "on the show", and while on the show any time there was an addendum to the rules, they were given to those of us on winners row and we had to sign a copy. WWTBAM verbally told us prior to coming to tape where we could get the rules.

If you are on a show and you choose to ignore these instructions, well that's a you problem.
By all means, continue lecturing me about the Jeopardy paperwork that I have received and you never have.

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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by opusthepenguin » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:44 pm

Geez, people. Everybody get down off your hind legs. Nobody needs to do lecturing on either side here. The winner is the first person to back off and speak respectfully without waiting for the other side to do it.

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that the rule is written down somewhere. That seems more likely than the judges relying on oral lore from some guy who remembers how they handled this situation the last time it happened. If they don't hand out those rules automatically, fine. It's possible to testify to this without getting snarky. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe they would (and maybe even are legally required to) provide those rules to contestants on request. This also can be averred without snark.

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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by jlgarfield » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:05 pm

Mathew5000 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:16 am
jlgarfield wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:33 pm
On the note of the tie for second place for FJ!, I seem to remember that in the past, if there was a three-way tie for 0 in a semi-final game, then the player leading at the end of DJ! would go into the finals.
You're talking about tournament play now? The rule that you are describing was mentioned in a "Jeopardy rules" document of uncertain provenance, quoted by Jeff6286 in 2011: viewtopic.php?p=11202#p11202

But if that was ever the rule for all three players finishing a semi-final game with a 0 score, then it had been changed by 2013: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1179

And after 2013, the rule was changed to have a tiebreaker round determine the winner, in the case of a three-way tie for 0 in a semi-final game: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2514

Updated to add: Jeff was quoting from a document written by Brian Dominy, a fan who had a web site called "The Jeopardy! Database of Champions". (The link is to a version online in 2007, saved by the Internet Wayback Machine.) He has been mentioned a few times on Jboard.
Yes, I was referring to tournament play.

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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by dhkendall » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:09 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:44 pm
Geez, people. Everybody get down off your hind legs. Nobody needs to do lecturing on either side here. The winner is the first person to back off and speak respectfully without waiting for the other side to do it.
Do they also get to go first in DJ!? :lol:
"Jeopardy! is two parts luck and one part luck" - Me

"The way to win on Jeopardy is to be a rabidly curious, information-omnivorous person your entire life." - Ken Jennings

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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by opusthepenguin » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:18 pm

dhkendall wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:09 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:44 pm
Geez, people. Everybody get down off your hind legs. Nobody needs to do lecturing on either side here. The winner is the first person to back off and speak respectfully without waiting for the other side to do it.
Do they also get to go first in DJ!? :lol:
I don't know. I forgot to write the rules down.

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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by triviawayne » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:44 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:18 pm
dhkendall wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:09 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:44 pm
Geez, people. Everybody get down off your hind legs. Nobody needs to do lecturing on either side here. The winner is the first person to back off and speak respectfully without waiting for the other side to do it.
Do they also get to go first in DJ!? :lol:
I don't know. I forgot to write the rules down.
Doesn’t matter on this forum as few people believe written rules actually exist or apply.
Total game show career losings = $171,522

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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by opusthepenguin » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:57 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:44 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:18 pm
dhkendall wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:09 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:44 pm
Geez, people. Everybody get down off your hind legs. Nobody needs to do lecturing on either side here. The winner is the first person to back off and speak respectfully without waiting for the other side to do it.
Do they also get to go first in DJ!? :lol:
I don't know. I forgot to write the rules down.
Doesn’t matter on this forum as few people believe written rules actually exist or apply.
Dude. Let it go. If you don't want to win, at least don't lose.

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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by seaborgium » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:50 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:44 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:18 pm
dhkendall wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:09 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:44 pm
Geez, people. Everybody get down off your hind legs. Nobody needs to do lecturing on either side here. The winner is the first person to back off and speak respectfully without waiting for the other side to do it.
Do they also get to go first in DJ!? :lol:
I don't know. I forgot to write the rules down.
Doesn’t matter on this forum as few people believe written rules actually exist or apply.
"The paperwork doesn't have the rules of the game" is the extent of what I was trying to say. I have to imagine the rules exist in written form somewhere, but that was not the assumption phrased in the form of an assertion earlier.

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triviawayne
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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by triviawayne » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:44 am

opusthepenguin wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:57 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:44 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:18 pm
dhkendall wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:09 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:44 pm
Geez, people. Everybody get down off your hind legs. Nobody needs to do lecturing on either side here. The winner is the first person to back off and speak respectfully without waiting for the other side to do it.
Do they also get to go first in DJ!? :lol:
I don't know. I forgot to write the rules down.
Doesn’t matter on this forum as few people believe written rules actually exist or apply.
Dude. Let it go. If you don't want to win, at least don't lose.
There is nothing here to win or lose. I'm simply stating a fact that we now have two threads on this board regarding written rules of game shows, and contained in those two threads, those written rules aren't accepted as what the rules are for the games; whether said rules are posted online for all to read, or only visible to those who appear on these shows.
Total game show career losings = $171,522

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Re: Quick Rules Q

Post by Golf » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:51 am

seaborgium wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:41 pm
Sounds like you are (the former, I mean). The paperwork has nothing of the ins and outs of a game of Jeopardy.
triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:35 am
If you are on a show and you choose to ignore these instructions, well that's a you problem.
I find it interesting that both people you chose to lecture about supposedly not reading the rules have each won 6 figures on game shows. Perhaps they learned how to properly play the game instead of memorizing the rule book?

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