2019 TOC Updates

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2019 TOC Updates

Post by squarekara » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:39 am


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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by OntarioQuizzer » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:48 am

*grabs popcorn*
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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by alietr » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:24 am

So, who got screwed out of a slot?

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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by opusthepenguin » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:27 am

Interesting. I was not expecting the Emma Boettcher twist. Will they face her off against Holzhauer in the quarterfinals or hope she makes it to the finals?

Jimmy says, "Anyone who could have qualified for this TOC will be held over for eligibility in the next edition". How are we defining "could have qualified"? And does "eligibility" equal a more or less guaranteed spot? Do we know for certain who's being held over? As long as they still get to go, I imagine the holdovers are happier waiting for a non-Holzhauer TOC.

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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by StevenH » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:36 am

Larry Martin is still on the ToC tracker. Does anyone know how many past contestants were in line between Lindsey and Emma?

I'm also curious to see what the cutoff for the ToC after the next one will be, but I think it's only fair that TPTB use the game that airs immediately before the first QF game of the 2019 ToC airs in considering contestants from this cycle for the next one.

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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by OntarioQuizzer » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:44 am

StevenH wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:36 am
Does anyone know how many past contestants were in line between Lindsey and Emma?
At this point, seven.
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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by jeff6286 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:47 am

so what about the seven other four-time champs that are ahead of Emma. Surely they are not all going to be held over for the next TOC, but what did Jimmy’s disclaimer at the end mean? Maybe that was just thrown in given it is fairly likely that someone wins five games between now and the TOC.
Last edited by jeff6286 on Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by jev15 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:49 am

I don't like this. It feels contrary to the spirit of the tournament. I liked Emma and I guess the argument is that she should get some extra credit for beating James, but I don't think I buy it. This is favoritism and someone is going to get left out who earned that place.

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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by jeff6286 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:50 am

I guess the bottom line could be that they are finally taking the step to making this simply an invitational tournament. It’s been said for many years that even winning five game was no guarantee of an invite, but we’ve always assumed it was unofficially official barring death, criminal charges or other intervening events.

Maybe this will remain the case for five game winners but beyond that they will take their prerogative to choose whatever players they feel like. Very interesting...

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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by Ironhorse » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:15 am

If they had to leapfrog someone, I would have preferred Jackie Fuchs. She's obviously great TV and had that health incident in her fifth game. Since she is in LA, I would bet she is the alternate.

I don't feel so bad given that no five time winner is bumped. Dave Leffler would have been good TV though (a retired cop with a massive handlebar mustache).

Off the top of my head, I would assign gold to Holzhauer, Hill, Jones, Worman, and Backes.

(Also, is it a coincidence that this is announced immediately before a contestant goes for his fifth game? In the event Ryan wins tonight, it would certainly make sense of that, at least.)
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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by hbomb1947 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:25 am

opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:27 am
Interesting. I was not expecting the Emma Boettcher twist. Will they face her off against Holzhauer in the quarterfinals or hope she makes it to the finals?
I don't think they would face off in quarters because it would be anticlimactic if one of them wins and the other still gets a wild-card.

If that's the case, TPTB (acknowledging that it's their game, their rules and they know a lot more than I do about producing a quality entertainment product) has set what is IMO a terrible precedent despite there being no guarantee that James and Emma will actually both perform well enough to end up facing each other - whether in semis or finals. (My guess is the producers would want the matchup to occur in semis since it would be a 1-game winner-take-all match.)

ETA: another reason a quarterfinal matchup between James and Emma wouldn't have the flavor of a true rematch is that it's likely that the trailing player (or both of them, if they're both trailing their mutual opponent going into FJ) won't even go for the victory, but will wager to maximize the chance of getting a wild card.
Last edited by hbomb1947 on Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by StevenH » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:30 am

This also kind of reminds me of KJ not getting to play in a regular ToC. I didn't agree with that decision, either. I liked the UToC, but he shouldn't have gotten a bye into the finals.

Anyway, aside from James and Emma the only contestant in this lineup who I have seen play is Josh Hill. Working 2 jobs has really cut into my viewing, but I still think that it will be a fun tournament and I will definitely watch it.

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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by threearruda » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 am

Writing on phone, sorry in advance for typos or other nonsensical musings. Great little surprise this morning!

Makes a lot of sense now why the website keepers kept Larry on the ToC tracker even after his passing, and why the cutoff happened when it did. Fourteen in, and fill Larry’s spot with whomever you wish.

TBH I don’t really mind the decision because now probable alternate Dave would have been bumped out by Ryan B. anyway, and Emma did win more money than the other 4x champs on the outside looking in (besides Dave). You’re basically deferring Ryan B. in Larry’s vacated fifteenth spot for a “wildcard” entrant. Fine by me.

The show has clearly been trending in the direction of marketability for a few years now and ultimately I think this will set a bad precedent for reasons Jeff and hbomb listed above. In the end though I think more people will be excited/interested (myself included) than angry, so it is what it is.

I’ve preliminarily got James as platinum and Josh, Eric, Emma and Lindsey in my gold tier, with some more thoughts on sleepers and such that I’ll share as we get closer to taping/airing. Can’t wait to see how it all shakes out!
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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by MarkBarrett » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:59 am

Champs since the last ToC:

Kyle Becker: 4x $63,802 - Out
Gilbert Collins: 5x $84,201 - In
Rachel Lindgren: 5x $75,999 - In
Ryan Fenster: 7x $156,497 - In
Rob Worman: 6x $133,900 - In
Dhruv Gaur: College $100,000 - In
Larry Martin: Teacher $100,000 - Out (deceased)
Josh Hill: 7x $163,721 - In
Kyle Jones: 7x $145,403 - In
Alex Schmidt: 4x $92,880 - Out
Alan Dunn: 5x $120,802 - In
Mary Ann Borer: 4x $86,500 - Out
Dave Leffler: 4x $100,102 - Out
Jackie Fuchs: 4x $87,089 - Out
Jonathan Dinerstein: 4x $93,301 - Out
Anneke Garcia: 4x $104,497 - In
John Presloid: 4x $92,200 - Out
Eric R. Backes: 4x $105,602 - In
Lindsey Shultz: 4x $101,002 - In
Steven Grade: 5x $115,501 - In
James Holzhauer: 32x $2,462,216 - In
Francois Barcomb: Teacher $100,000 - In
Emma Boettcher: 3x $97,002 - In

4x champs not in:
Kyle, Alex, Mary Ann, Dave, Jackie, Jonathan, John.

Comment for champs in July:
Spoiler
Show
Ryan Bilger through the 7/9 game had four wins and $107,049.
The video said not to worry that champs who would have qualified for this ToC would be held over for eligibility for the next edition.

More comments that could be spoilerish:
Spoiler
Show
That is 7 (or 8 depending on Ryan's run) that won more games than Emma yet are not participating this year. Having the next ToC already half full before the 2019 airs? Makes no sense. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Yes, the powers can do what they want in the name of the potential rematch of Emma vs. Ryan or gender diversity. It goes against the tradition of wins more important than money. I get that 4 wins guarantees nothing as far as a ToC invite though the Emma leapfrogging cannot sit well with all of these champs that won one more game than she did.

What should have happened was a different format with 27 players and 9 knockout games. No wildcards and sequestering needed. Yes, an extra taping day and more players to accommodate. Not impossible to manage. Just different than previous operations.

The powers have managed to get things their way in many tournaments in the 21st century:
Brad vs. Ken in UToC
Roger vs. Ken vs. Brad in BotD
Julia in ToC finals
Austin & Buzzy in ToC finals
Team Ken vs. Team Brad in All-Stars

Next up Emma vs. James in 2019 ToC?

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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by hbomb1947 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:24 pm

MarkBarrett wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:59 am

Spoiler
Show
Yes, the powers can do what they want in the name of the potential rematch of Emma vs. Ryan or gender diversity. It goes against the tradition of wins more important than money. I get that 4 wins guarantees nothing as far as a ToC invite though the Emma leapfrogging cannot sit well with all of these champs that won one more game than she did.
And a big reason for Emma's gaudy dollar total was that she faced James in her first game, which was conducive to a huge payday. Yes, all kudos to her for beating him, but in her other 2 wins she averaged about $25K.

But of course Emma's TOC bid wasn't really about her dollars won. It's all about the potential rematch, which will be very marketable.
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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by LanceJ » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:51 pm

hbomb1947 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:24 pm

But of course Emma's TOC bid wasn't really about her dollars won. It's all about the potential rematch, which will be very marketable.
Agreed, it's great TV and no 5-time champs were bumped for it, so I'm having trouble getting too riled up. I'd expect Dave to come back for the next ToC but I'm not particularly optimistic for the 4Xers who didn't top Emma's score.

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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by yclept » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:03 pm

No issues with this. Emma getting a bid over some 4x champs is certainly unprecedented, but I can understand why they did it.

Also, this guarantees a few other women who were close to the bubble won’t get overtaken, which is something I am sure the producers were looking at as well.

Ryan is a good champ who could have hung tough with James, but hey - if I was in his shoes, you can bet your life that I would take my chances on the $250K in a field that does not include James.

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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by MarkBarrett » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:13 pm

Thinking about this more has me understanding it better.

Top 15 players:
32x - 1
7x - 3
6x - 1
5x - 4
College - 1
Teacher - 2
4x - 3 (Anneke, Lindsey & Eric)

That's a full and legitimate field.
Larry Martin out opened up a space. The producers filled it with Emma and her 3 wins and connection to James. I get it and understand.

The bunch of other four-time champs were not going to make the TOC anyway so they were not cheated out of anything and will not need to be carried over to the next ToC.

For Dave Leffler:
Spoiler
Show
With the 15 locked down he is eligible to carry over to the next ToC. However, with time remaining this season and Ryan Bilger at 4 wins and $107,049 through Tuesday that eliminates Dave through proper process. If someone in the remainder of this season exceeds Ryan's final 4-day total then that could eliminate Ryan as well. Ryan could win a fifth game to assure himself carrying over the next ToC after 2019. Ryan could/should get a berth in that future ToC since his 4-day total was superior to that of Eric, Anneke and Lindsey.
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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by This Is Kirk! » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:36 pm

jev15 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:49 am
I don't like this. It feels contrary to the spirit of the tournament.
Me either. I'd be absolutely pissed if I was a four-time champ but got passed over because they decided to choose giant killer Emma. It's an indefensible* move as far as I'm concerned.
MarkBarrett wrote:The bunch of other four-time champs were not going to make the TOC anyway so they were not cheated out of anything
Not sure how you can say that. Seems to me at least one four-time champ got cheated out of their deserved spot. So did they not even select from the four-time champs based on their total winnings? I don't understand why they would do this.

* well, OK, the defense is the show can do whatever they want, but it cheapens the tournament in my eyes.

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Re: 2019 TOC Updates

Post by opusthepenguin » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:01 pm

Further ruminations:

1. The point about deferred eligibility makes it sound like no one's getting bumped, but that's nonsense. If they're not bumping someone from this pool, that just means they're bumping someone from the next. You can't add in a non-eligible player and not have it affect someone who would otherwise be eligible at some point.

2. BUT there is an extra slot in this TOC because of Larry Martin's passing. So really, if anyone gets bumped, it SHOULD be someone from this pool. It should be the contestant who would not have been eligible if Larry Martin were still alive. So I hope that's the way it plays out. I don't mind so much if Emma is just a pinch hitter for Larry.

3. Whatever fishiness we attach to this move shouldn't be applied to Emma. They offered her another chance to play. I hope no one faults her for saying yes.

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