Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

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Linear Gnome
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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by Linear Gnome » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:39 pm

Woof wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:24 pm
Linear Gnome wrote:
ObThread: He may be an underdog, but I'm rooting for Ken FTW.
Ok, I gotta ask: what Usenet group(s) did you post to?
I tended to be more of a lurker than a poster, but some of my groups were rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5, sci.math, and alt.callahans. Also used to read rec.humor.funny and rec.arts.movies.reviews.

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by Woof » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:37 pm

Linear Gnome wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:39 pm
Woof wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:24 pm
Linear Gnome wrote:
ObThread: He may be an underdog, but I'm rooting for Ken FTW.
Ok, I gotta ask: what Usenet group(s) did you post to?
I tended to be more of a lurker than a poster, but some of my groups were rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5, sci.math, and alt.callahans. Also used to read rec.humor.funny and rec.arts.movies.reviews.
Ok, no overlap with my groups, but our local Penguin might have overlapped with yours.

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by opusthepenguin » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:57 pm

Woof wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:37 pm
Linear Gnome wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:39 pm
Woof wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:24 pm
Linear Gnome wrote:
ObThread: He may be an underdog, but I'm rooting for Ken FTW.
Ok, I gotta ask: what Usenet group(s) did you post to?
I tended to be more of a lurker than a poster, but some of my groups were rec.arts.tv, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5, sci.math, and alt.callahans. Also used to read rec.humor.funny and rec.arts.movies.reviews.
Ok, no overlap with my groups, but our local Penguin might have overlapped with yours.
Nope. I tried alt.callahans for a bit because it was supposed to be a good group, but I never got the hang of it. My main place was alt.fan.cecil-adams. I still miss the sensible threading of Usenet. You could always follow a conversation back up to its source without eyeballing a bunch of irrelevant stuff to see whether it was part of the stream. Why nobody implements that in online discussion groups is beyond me. I mean, JBoard's a great place but its interface is barely acceptable. Why won't somebody put together the 27 lines of code that would make this thing readable? I'm not blaming alietr by any means. He chose what was probably the best of the available options. I'm bemoaning the lack of decent available options. I mean, italics and images are fine, but they can't replace knowing where you are in the conversation.

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by gnash » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:26 am

twelvefootboy wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:10 pm
Washington, Lincoln, FDR.

(gotta scrape Teddy and TJ off Mt. Rushmore)
Your troika had an unfair advantage of having to lead through existential crises, so they are automatically great by the very fact that the country exists today. Adjusted for circumstances, though, I think Teddy has a strong claim to being the best POTUS of all.

Pelé, Maradona, Messi?

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by twelvefootboy » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:44 am

gnash wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:26 am
twelvefootboy wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:10 pm
Washington, Lincoln, FDR.

(gotta scrape Teddy and TJ off Mt. Rushmore)
Your troika had an unfair advantage of having to lead through existential crises, so they are automatically great by the very fact that the country exists today. Adjusted for circumstances, though, I think Teddy has a strong claim to being the best POTUS of all.

Pelé, Maradona, Messi?

I agree about the timing that benefits Washington in particular, and about Teddy's leadership. You gotta keep Lincoln, because slavery. I think FDR bumps Washington because Great Depression AND WW2. Other founding fathers could have been the first POTUS. I don't know of any of FDR's contemporaries that could have been as transformative.
So get the dynamite and take off 1st and 3rd POTUS for FDR, TJ, and Abe!!

What language is that bottom phrase? Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite? Citius, Altius, Fortius? Veni, Vidi, Vici? (apologies for the lazy spelling).
Disclaimer - repeated exposure to author's musings may cause befuddlement.

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by gnash » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:21 am

twelvefootboy wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:44 am
gnash wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:26 am
twelvefootboy wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:10 pm
Washington, Lincoln, FDR.

(gotta scrape Teddy and TJ off Mt. Rushmore)
Your troika had an unfair advantage of having to lead through existential crises, so they are automatically great by the very fact that the country exists today. Adjusted for circumstances, though, I think Teddy has a strong claim to being the best POTUS of all.

Pelé, Maradona, Messi?

I agree about the timing that benefits Washington in particular, and about Teddy's leadership. You gotta keep Lincoln, because slavery. I think FDR bumps Washington because Great Depression AND WW2. Other founding fathers could have been the first POTUS. I don't know of any of FDR's contemporaries that could have been as transformative.
So get the dynamite and take off 1st and 3rd POTUS for FDR, TJ, and Abe!!
I didn't mean to take away from any of their accomplishments, and they all had huge value-over-replacement-player. It's just hard to compare crisis and non-crisis presidents, and Teddy clearly stands out among the latter.
What language is that bottom phrase? Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite? Citius, Altius, Fortius? Veni, Vidi, Vici? (apologies for the lazy spelling).
:D :D :D
We no speak Americano.

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by Golf » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:28 pm

MarkBarrett wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:54 am
Golf - Tiger and Nicklaus are locks while good luck figuring out the third.
Bobby Jones is the unquestioned #3, after that things get murky. Arnold was great for golf, making the sport more mainstream, but he's definitely not top 5.

As for the initial question posed in this thread, the answer is nobody. Any serious suggestions otherwise are laughable. The gap between #3 and #4 is on a cosmic level. Now, going from #4 on is a much more interesting exercise. Although players from the first 15 years are much harder to judge because they got so little chances compared to players now. Not only the 5 win limit but the recurring tournaments that the same players get invited to. We'll never know how Spangenberg and Vered would do in their prime against Craig and Jacob.

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by jeff6286 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:44 pm

Golf wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:28 pm
MarkBarrett wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:54 am
Golf - Tiger and Nicklaus are locks while good luck figuring out the third.
Bobby Jones is the unquestioned #3, after that things get murky. Arnold was great for golf, making the sport more mainstream, but he's definitely not top 5.

As for the initial question posed in this thread, the answer is nobody. Any serious suggestions otherwise are laughable. The gap between #3 and #4 is on a cosmic level. Now, going from #4 on is a much more interesting exercise. Although players from the first 15 years are much harder to judge because they got so little chances compared to players now. Not only the 5 win limit but the recurring tournaments that the same players get invited to. We'll never know how Spangenberg and Vered would do in their prime against Craig and Jacob.
Cosmic level is a ridiculous statement. Both things can be true:

It is clear that Brad, Ken, and James are the most accomplished Jeopardy players.

Both Roger and Alex have at times had their way with Ken and Brad.They didn't come out on top, which is the thing that matters most, but they absolutely would have a strong chance any time they might match up in the future.

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by Golf » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:17 pm

jeff6286 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:44 pm
Cosmic level is a ridiculous statement. Both things can be true:

It is clear that Brad, Ken, and James are the most accomplished Jeopardy players.

Both Roger and Alex have at times had their way with Ken and Brad.They didn't come out on top, which is the thing that matters most, but they absolutely would have a strong chance any time they might match up in the future.
The bolded part is the only metric used to determine GOAT(s). Compare the accomplishments of any of the three to any other player. Cosmic difference.

Manning had his way with Brady at times. Means nothing as far as GOAT goes. Mickelson had his way with Tiger at times. Means GOAT nothing.

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by jeff6286 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:49 pm

Golf wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:17 pm
jeff6286 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:44 pm
Cosmic level is a ridiculous statement. Both things can be true:

It is clear that Brad, Ken, and James are the most accomplished Jeopardy players.

Both Roger and Alex have at times had their way with Ken and Brad.They didn't come out on top, which is the thing that matters most, but they absolutely would have a strong chance any time they might match up in the future.
The bolded part is the only metric used to determine GOAT(s). Compare the accomplishments of any of the three to any other player. Cosmic difference.

Manning had his way with Brady at times. Means nothing as far as GOAT goes. Mickelson had his way with Tiger at times. Means GOAT nothing.
I'm saying even if it's quite clear that (for example) Ken Jennings is #3 and Alex Jacob is #4, that doesn't mean there is a chasm between them. Maybe it's just semantics but cosmic level (or anything approaching that language) strikes me as way off the mark.

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by jeff6286 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:56 pm

jeff6286 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:49 pm
Golf wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:17 pm
jeff6286 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:44 pm
Cosmic level is a ridiculous statement. Both things can be true:

It is clear that Brad, Ken, and James are the most accomplished Jeopardy players.

Both Roger and Alex have at times had their way with Ken and Brad.They didn't come out on top, which is the thing that matters most, but they absolutely would have a strong chance any time they might match up in the future.
The bolded part is the only metric used to determine GOAT(s). Compare the accomplishments of any of the three to any other player. Cosmic difference.

Manning had his way with Brady at times. Means nothing as far as GOAT goes. Mickelson had his way with Tiger at times. Means GOAT nothing.
I'm saying even if it's quite clear that (for example) Ken Jennings is #3 and Alex Jacob is #4, that doesn't mean there is a chasm between them. Maybe it's just semantics but cosmic level (or anything approaching that language) strikes me as way off the mark.
Also don't forget about debates like Chamberlain Vs Russell or DiMaggio vs Williams. Ask which won more rings and the answer is clear, there's a chasm between those players. But then consider the teammates they had, and you might see a different story. Jeopardy is usually an individual sport but the only time Alex Jacob has gone against Brad and Ken, it was a team game. Are you looking at the teammates in seeing this "chasm" that you've declared?

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by Golf » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:34 pm

jeff6286 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:56 pm
I'm saying even if it's quite clear that (for example) Ken Jennings is #3 and Alex Jacob is #4, that doesn't mean there is a chasm between them. Maybe it's just semantics but cosmic level (or anything approaching that language) strikes me as way off the mark.

Also don't forget about debates like Chamberlain Vs Russell or DiMaggio vs Williams. Ask which won more rings and the answer is clear, there's a chasm between those players. But then consider the teammates they had, and you might see a different story. Jeopardy is usually an individual sport but the only time Alex Jacob has gone against Brad and Ken, it was a team game. Are you looking at the teammates in seeing this "chasm" that you've declared?
I'm not sure if I'd ever use a team format as a Jeopardy measuring stick.

If, in the future, AJ (for example) wins a super tournament (against KJ and/or Rutter) or more, then I would re-evaluate what I've said. But, at present, given the bodies of work, there is a chasm between KJ and AJ. That may change.

GOAT doesn't mean who would win at present, MJ got embarrassed plenty of times on the hardwood as a member of the Wizards. But it didn't mean those players were in the GOAT category. GOAT is greatest of all time, not who is currently the best.

So we could be arguing about semantics of what GOAT represents.

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by StevenH » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:10 am

The contestants from the 2014, 2015, 2017, and 2019 ToCs never got to compete against Ken, Brad, or James in super tournaments where the play was all individual, so I do think that it's a little unfair for them not to be considered for a GOAT tournament. Alex Jacob, Arthur Chu, and maybe Ben Ingram and Emma Boettcher are the only contestants from those four tournaments who I would really lobby to bring back, though. And I can see the argument against inviting Chu and Boettcher since they didn't actually win their ToCs, and the latter already had her chance against James in a regular ToC.

But Bruce Seymour did win Super Jeopardy! after he failed to advance past the quarterfinals of his ToC, so I can't help but think that at the very least certain contestants from the 2014, 2015, and 2017 ToCs (and possibly 2019) got a little bit of an unfair deal in not getting the chance at an individual super tournament first.

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by Woof » Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:38 am

StevenH wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:10 am
The contestants from the 2014, 2015, 2017, and 2019 ToCs never got to compete against Ken, Brad, or James in super tournaments where the play was all individual, so I do think that it's a little unfair for them not to be considered for a GOAT tournament. Alex Jacob, Arthur Chu, and maybe Ben Ingram and Emma Boettcher are the only contestants from those four tournaments who I would really lobby to bring back, though. And I can see the argument against inviting Chu and Boettcher since they didn't actually win their ToCs, and the latter already had her chance against James in a regular ToC.
I’d put Matt Jackson against any recent champ with the exception of AJ. His performance in the All-Star game showed me just how good he is (and, by extension, how unbelievably good AJ is).

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Re: Besides Ken, Brad, and James, what other contestants could be considered GOAT?

Post by Roland » Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:56 pm

Julia should never be on anyone's list. Easily most overrated champ ever.

As evidenced by getting smashed in the all-stars.

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