Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Volante » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:45 pm

jeff6286 wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:41 pm
TenPoundHammer wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:33 pm
Peter the accountant wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:49 am
TenPoundHammer wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:10 pm
Any reason I should know that German salad is made from potatoes?
It's not German salad, it's German this salad, or German ___________ salad. The foodie route to the answer is to know what German _____ salad distinctively uses vinegar.
Which doesn't help since I have literally never heard of German potato salad before. I haven't even seen regular potato salad offered ANYwhere, so I didn't know there were variants.
So you don't know anything about potato salad, therefore you weren't ever going to get any clue about potato salad, top row or not, German or not. So why are we still talking about this 5 days later?
And no one wants five day old potato salad...

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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alietr » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:02 pm

jeff6286 wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:41 pm
TenPoundHammer wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:33 pm
Peter the accountant wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:49 am
TenPoundHammer wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:10 pm
Any reason I should know that German salad is made from potatoes?
It's not German salad, it's German this salad, or German ___________ salad. The foodie route to the answer is to know what German _____ salad distinctively uses vinegar.
Which doesn't help since I have literally never heard of German potato salad before. I haven't even seen regular potato salad offered ANYwhere, so I didn't know there were variants.
So you don't know anything about potato salad, therefore you weren't ever going to get any clue about potato salad, top row or not, German or not. So why are we still talking about this 5 days later?
Because it's TPH. Duh.

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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by hbomb1947 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:56 pm

I agree with the sentiment that this FJ was an unfortunate lapse by the writers. Since Bram Stoker was Irish, Dracula, despite the fact that it was penned in London, is no more a "British" novel than The Sun Also Rises (written by Hemingway in Paris) or The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas (written by Gertrude Stein in Paris) are French literature. The problem could have been avoided if the category had been titled "19th century literature."
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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by econgator » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:12 pm

hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:56 pm
I agree with the sentiment that this FJ was an unfortunate lapse by the writers. Since Bram Stoker was Irish, Dracula, despite the fact that it was penned in London, is no more a "British" novel than The Sun Also Rises (written by Hemingway in Paris) or The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas (written by Gertrude Stein in Paris) are French literature. The problem could have been avoided if the category had been titled "19th century literature."
As mentioned above, though, at the time, the whole of Ireland was part of the UK and for Stoker's entire life he was a British citizen. It's hard to say that it's not a British novel.

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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by hbomb1947 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:30 pm

econgator wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:12 pm
hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:56 pm
I agree with the sentiment that this FJ was an unfortunate lapse by the writers. Since Bram Stoker was Irish, Dracula, despite the fact that it was penned in London, is no more a "British" novel than The Sun Also Rises (written by Hemingway in Paris) or The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas (written by Gertrude Stein in Paris) are French literature. The problem could have been avoided if the category had been titled "19th century literature."
As mentioned above, though, at the time, the whole of Ireland was part of the UK and for Stoker's entire life he was a British citizen. It's hard to say that it's not a British novel.
Ireland was part of the UK but not of Great Britain and therefore Stoker would have been a UK citizen but not a British one. Unfortunately, the category wasn't Classic UK Novels.
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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by A Wray » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:43 pm

hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:30 pm
Ireland was part of the UK but not of Great Britain and therefore Stoker would have been a UK citizen but not a British one.
The adjective "British" refers to the UK as a whole. This may be strange and indeed controversial -- just as it's controversial that citizens of the United States are referred to as "Americans" -- but it's entirely standard.

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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by hbomb1947 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:17 am

A Wray wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:43 pm
hbomb1947 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:30 pm
Ireland was part of the UK but not of Great Britain and therefore Stoker would have been a UK citizen but not a British one.
The adjective "British" refers to the UK as a whole. This may be strange and indeed controversial -- just as it's controversial that citizens of the United States are referred to as "Americans" -- but it's entirely standard.
TIL that. But "British" is also a demonym for denizens of Great Britain specifically, so at best the adjective "British" is ambiguous in the context of this flawed clue. As someone noted above, people should not be punished for knowing that Stoker was Irish, which the clue effectively does.
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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin » Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:36 pm

hbomb1947 wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:17 am
TIL that. But "British" is also a demonym for denizens of Great Britain specifically, so at best the adjective "British" is ambiguous in the context of this flawed clue. As someone noted above, people should not be punished for knowing that Stoker was Irish, which the clue effectively does.
I'm on the other side, I guess. I think the clue punishes you for knowing ONLY that Stoker was Irish. I think that's fair, just as its fair to punish contestants for knowing only that T. S. Eliot was American.* Stoker was, as you put it, a denizen of Great Britain (specifically England) and therefore British. His most famous novel is set mostly in England. All the main characters (save the title one) are English. If you know this, or even just some of it, the knowledge that Stoker was born and raised in Ireland should not deter you from making the correct response.

---------------
* Until age 39 anyway when he became a British subject. Stoker, being already a British subject by birth and by baptism, had no possibility of making a similar gesture. As an ardent supporter of the Crown and a baptized member of the Church of Ireland (which was in union with the Church of England and swore allegiance to the English monarch), Stoker might have felt his Britishness was sufficiently established already. I think he would have found it comical to learn that people would one day object to the deceptiveness of this clue on the grounds that he was not British but Irish.

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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by morbeedo » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:40 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:36 pm
hbomb1947 wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:17 am
TIL that. But "British" is also a demonym for denizens of Great Britain specifically, so at best the adjective "British" is ambiguous in the context of this flawed clue. As someone noted above, people should not be punished for knowing that Stoker was Irish, which the clue effectively does.
I'm on the other side, I guess. I think the clue punishes you for knowing ONLY that Stoker was Irish. I think that's fair, just as its fair to punish contestants for knowing only that T. S. Eliot was American.* Stoker was, as you put it, a denizen of Great Britain (specifically England) and therefore British. His most famous novel is set mostly in England. All the main characters (save the title one) are English. If you know this, or even just some of it, the knowledge that Stoker was born and raised in Ireland should not deter you from making the correct response.

---------------
Fine, I'll give you British, but in what world is Dracula considered a "classic" novel. It's a loaded word, but if they're going to use it, then people are going to think of the canon, and IMO, that doesn't include Dracula. Splitting hairs, maybe, but the question is polling at 20%

I had nothing when the music ended - well, I had Wuthering Heights until I reread "title character" then picked Jude the Obscure over David Copperfield and Oliver Twist, which I knew to be wrong.

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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:46 pm

morbeedo wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:40 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:36 pm
hbomb1947 wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:17 am
TIL that. But "British" is also a demonym for denizens of Great Britain specifically, so at best the adjective "British" is ambiguous in the context of this flawed clue. As someone noted above, people should not be punished for knowing that Stoker was Irish, which the clue effectively does.
I'm on the other side, I guess. I think the clue punishes you for knowing ONLY that Stoker was Irish. I think that's fair, just as its fair to punish contestants for knowing only that T. S. Eliot was American.* Stoker was, as you put it, a denizen of Great Britain (specifically England) and therefore British. His most famous novel is set mostly in England. All the main characters (save the title one) are English. If you know this, or even just some of it, the knowledge that Stoker was born and raised in Ireland should not deter you from making the correct response.

---------------
Fine, I'll give you British, but in what world is Dracula considered a "classic" novel. It's a loaded word, but if they're going to use it, then people are going to think of the canon, and IMO, that doesn't include Dracula. Splitting hairs, maybe, but the question is polling at 20%
It's still read and influential after 122 years. What more do you want?

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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by morbeedo » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:39 pm

davey wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:46 pm
morbeedo wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:40 pm
Fine, I'll give you British, but in what world is Dracula considered a "classic" novel. It's a loaded word, but if they're going to use it, then people are going to think of the canon, and IMO, that doesn't include Dracula. Splitting hairs, maybe, but the question is polling at 20%
It's still read and influential after 122 years. What more do you want?
A LOT

ETA: I just asked this question to my friend (M.A., English, NYU), and he said "I don't consider Dracula a classic British novel." He came up with Robinson Crusoe as his best guess

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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:30 pm

morbeedo wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:39 pm
davey wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:46 pm
morbeedo wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:40 pm
Fine, I'll give you British, but in what world is Dracula considered a "classic" novel. It's a loaded word, but if they're going to use it, then people are going to think of the canon, and IMO, that doesn't include Dracula. Splitting hairs, maybe, but the question is polling at 20%
It's still read and influential after 122 years. What more do you want?
A LOT

ETA: I just asked this question to my friend (M.A., English, NYU), and he said "I don't consider Dracula a classic British novel." He came up with Robinson Crusoe as his best guess
I guess it depends on your definition of "classic". If we're going by what's likely to be taught in the Literature department of a major university as part of the standard curriculum, Dracula probably doesn't make the cut as often as Robinson Crusoe but more often than The Swiss Family Robinson. (Both of those examples have been referred to as "classic" on Jeopardy!--the latter more often than the former.)

And this isn't the first time J! has referred to Dracula as a classic novel. It showed up in that capacity earlier this year on 2019-02-13. Before that, we saw it with that description on 2011-12-20

Ask your friend which of the following he would consider to be classic literature:

The Swiss Family Robinson
The Hobbit
Treasure Island
Kidnapped
Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde
The Master of Ballantrae (also by RLS. NHOI)
Ivanhoe
Woodstock (also by Sir Walter Scott. NHOI)
Black Beauty
Lonesome Dove
The Adventures of Tom Sawyer
The Legend of Sleepy Hollow
Lassie Come Home
Kama Sutra
The Education of Henry Adams
Little Lord Fauntleroy
The Wizard of Oz

All those make the cut according to the lowbrows at Jeopardy! They sure do love their two 19th-century Scottish authors.

But whatever the case, as you point out this clue is polling awfully low--21% currently. I'm surprised at that and would have predicted this clue polling in the 40s at the lowest. Still, my arbitrary fairness cutoff is 20% so this clue makes my grade as tough but fair.

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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:13 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:30 pm
morbeedo wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:39 pm
davey wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:46 pm
morbeedo wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:40 pm
Fine, I'll give you British, but in what world is Dracula considered a "classic" novel. It's a loaded word, but if they're going to use it, then people are going to think of the canon, and IMO, that doesn't include Dracula. Splitting hairs, maybe, but the question is polling at 20%
It's still read and influential after 122 years. What more do you want?
A LOT

ETA: I just asked this question to my friend (M.A., English, NYU), and he said "I don't consider Dracula a classic British novel." He came up with Robinson Crusoe as his best guess
I guess it depends on your definition of "classic". If we're going by what's likely to be taught in the Literature department of a major university as part of the standard curriculum, Dracula probably doesn't make the cut as often as Robinson Crusoe but more often than The Swiss Family Robinson. (Both of those examples have been referred to as "classic" on Jeopardy!--the latter more often than the former.)

I'd guess Dracula is taught more than Robinson Crusoe (I believe genre studies is a thing in academia), but I'm not sure why anybody would limit classic to what's taught, anyway. Enduring works that are widely read and alluded to even by people who haven't read them would be a better rule of thumb for Jeopardy! We're not talking about The Lair of the White Worm, after all...
I'm sure RC's home on the island was drafty, (or draughty!) but I doubt it had casements or battlements...
BTW, I leaned today that Bram Stoker has long entries in both "The Concise Oxford Companion to Irish Literature" and "The Oxford Encyclopedia of British Literature."

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Re: Friday, November 29, 2019 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by morbeedo » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:55 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:30 pm
I guess it depends on your definition of "classic". If we're going by what's likely to be taught in the Literature department of a major university as part of the standard curriculum, Dracula probably doesn't make the cut as often as Robinson Crusoe but more often than The Swiss Family Robinson. (Both of those examples have been referred to as "classic" on Jeopardy!--the latter more often than the former.)

And this isn't the first time J! has referred to Dracula as a classic novel. It showed up in that capacity earlier this year on 2019-02-13. Before that, we saw it with that description on 2011-12-20

Ask your friend which of the following he would consider to be classic literature:
Spoiler
Show
The Swiss Family Robinson
The Hobbit
Treasure Island
Kidnapped
Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde
The Master of Ballantrae (also by RLS. NHOI)
Ivanhoe
Woodstock (also by Sir Walter Scott. NHOI)
Black Beauty
Lonesome Dove
The Adventures of Tom Sawyer
The Legend of Sleepy Hollow
Lassie Come Home
Kama Sutra
The Education of Henry Adams
Little Lord Fauntleroy
The Wizard of Oz
All those make the cut according to the lowbrows at Jeopardy! They sure do love their two 19th-century Scottish authors.

But whatever the case, as you point out this clue is polling awfully low--21% currently. I'm surprised at that and would have predicted this clue polling in the 40s at the lowest. Still, my arbitrary fairness cutoff is 20% so this clue makes my grade as tough but fair.
I didn't mean to imply that my friend is an authority on Classic Brit. Lit, just another opinion

I read Dracula for a college elective on The History of Witchcraft & Magic. I also took a course on Major British Writers: Blake to the Present, and Stoker was not once mentioned.

Now, if the category were 19th C. GOTHIC HORROR NOVELS...

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