GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by LucarioSnooperVixey »

Game 1:

57 R
DD: 3/3
FJ: :mrgreen:
LT: Aspen, (James Clerk Maxwell), Influenzabaglione

Missed the Kanye West album, The Clash album, and the Bruce Lee martial art.

Game 2:

54 R
DD: 3/3
FJ: :mrgreen:
LT: (Courtney Love), A Fate Worse Than Death

Never would have gotten the last name of "The Rumba King". NHO the rock band at Welcome Back Boys $600. The Once Upon A Time In Hollywood category was a disaster for me as I was only able to get Wings. Should have known Lawrence Welk.
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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by talkingaway »

davey wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:49 am
Surprised that James missed that last FJ. I guess he was thinking that since Hamlet is the longest play, it must have the most supporting speeches. It looks like James was right that Horatio has the most speeches after Hamlet. I would have thought it was Claudius, myself...he has almost, but not quite, as many...Polonius is quite far behind...
Yup, had I remembered that Polonius died in the middle of Othello (oh, sorry - SPOILER ALERT!), I could have avoided the trap I set for myself. I actually saw Othello on stage last year at this time...I honestly can't say that Iago's stage time stood out to me. And, ironically, the production was from a traveling company from the Oregon Shakespeare Festival in Ashland, a tie-in to the first game's clue. (I would have got "Oregon" as the home of a famous Shakespeare festival, but Ashland stumped me. Pun intended.)

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Ironhorse »

I don't understand Ken betting 0 in a wheelhouse category (Shakespeare). It was no secret what James was going to bet.
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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by reddpen »

twelvefootboy wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:31 pm
I punted on the FJ, but if I'd tried to name ONE character it would have to be Iago or Yorick (and I don't know if Yorick is a character, and don't need to know lol).
Yorick was a skull with zero lines. Not that my WAG of Macduff was much closer.
twelvefootboy wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:31 pm
0 for 8 on FJ's, got a couple of DD's. I've had enough of this for a long time.
You and me both, pal. Been a long time since I went 0 for 8 on FJs, though a couple of them I got half right (Napoleon, Whigs). In tonight's first game I joined Brad in making up a Greek region called Bucolia.

Hats off, crown on to Ken! I only wish it could have lasted longer, because that's the best Jeopardy! we're ever likely to see.
Back in the pool

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by econgator »

Ironhorse wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:14 am
I don't understand Ken betting 0 in a wheelhouse category (Shakespeare). It was no secret what James was going to bet.
Why should Ken bet? He couldn't catch James. Bet zero and hope he gets it wrong.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by talkingaway »

econgator wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:38 am
Ironhorse wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:14 am
I don't understand Ken betting 0 in a wheelhouse category (Shakespeare). It was no secret what James was going to bet.
Why should Ken bet? He couldn't catch James. Bet zero and hope he gets it wrong.
James was "in control of his fate" - he can amass about 122K points, while Ken can only get about 111K points. So, if James gets FJ! right, he can win.

If James gets FJ! wrong, he can retain at most 78181 by betting 0. Ken's holdover of 65+K, plus his current score of 23K, beat that.

Thus, Ken's response is completely irrelevant, and he may as well bet 0. Nothing he can bet can counter an optimal wager from James combined with a correct answer, and if James is wrong, betting 0 means he wins anyway.

Food for thought: Was Brad sandbagging it in the second game? With a score of 0 in the first game, it's almost impossible for him to win the match. His best hope is to let James be James and force a fifth game. Brad scoring points takes away from the points available for Holzjennhauerings, and the more points available, the more points James can get to try and make a comeback and beat Ken's great showing in game 1. And it almost worked!

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Mathew5000 »

floridagator wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:14 pm
But in a more ominous note, why did Alex seem so certain that the three of them would never play again?
Alex said, "I don't mean to be negative, but this is probably the last time we will see the three of you competing as contestants on this program." I took him to mean, 'probably the last time all three of you will compete against each other' (because in future tournaments of überchampions, chances are that at least one different player will make the finals).

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by StevenH »

jeff6286 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:23 am
StevenH wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:07 pm
When Shakespeare was revealed as the category for the second FJ I knew that it was over. I will never forget Ken's $75,000 game where he nailed the Shakespeare FJ and said later on that Shakespeare was a dream category for him.
Your point would be stronger if Ken's Shakespeare knoweldge wasn't totally irrelevant in this instance. With James's large Game 2 total the game was entirely riding on his response.
Oh yeah, oops, I thought that Ken had the lead.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by brick »

talkingaway wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:15 am
davey wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:49 am
Surprised that James missed that last FJ. I guess he was thinking that since Hamlet is the longest play, it must have the most supporting speeches. It looks like James was right that Horatio has the most speeches after Hamlet. I would have thought it was Claudius, myself...he has almost, but not quite, as many...Polonius is quite far behind...
Yup, had I remembered that Polonius died in the middle of Othello (oh, sorry - SPOILER ALERT!), I could have avoided the trap I set for myself. I actually saw Othello on stage last year at this time...I honestly can't say that Iago's stage time stood out to me. And, ironically, the production was from a traveling company from the Oregon Shakespeare Festival in Ashland, a tie-in to the first game's clue. (I would have got "Oregon" as the home of a famous Shakespeare festival, but Ashland stumped me. Pun intended.)
Polonius dies in the middle of Hamlet. Otherwise, given his loquaciousness, he wasn’t a terrible guess.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by soxfan99 »

John Boy wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:12 pm
floridagator wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:14 pm

I suspect that the debate in forums like this one about who is the greatest of all-time will continue. But I wonder if henceforth Brad will be left out of those discussions. His performance in the tournament was not up to speed. Even so, it was not sporting for James to call attention to Brad not scoring in the first game.
C'mon, man, it was just light-hearted banter, and everyone, including Brad and AT, laughed at it. I thought it was funny as hell and in a fun spirit.
Yeah, that was hilarious. I actually laughed loudly out loud. Such a perfectly timed and clever jab! If he had said that against an opponent in a regular game, or even in a regular TOC against somebody he outmatched, it would have been in poor taste, but I'm pretty sure Brad and his $5MM in Jeopardy winnings can take it... Also, at the point, James was highly likely to lose, too, and at the end of the day they both took home $25k. Overall, I really enjoyed the little banter back and forth during the tourney. Jeopardy lucked out in having three players who are so good at the game, but also good on TV.

I was really happy with the way that game ended. The matches often came down to who was able to get the big DDs, which has a huge component of luck. Ken was +11,000 on James in match one (and won). James was ~+13,000 in match 2 (and won). James did miss the match 3 DD, which hurt him, but even if he had gotten it, Ken still would've out earned him on DDs. In this match, James's Coryat was around $15k more than Ken's, so if Ken or Brad got the last DD and Ken coasted to a win, it wouldn't have been the most satisfying conclusion.

By James getting that last DD, it canceled out the early luck and put the game in his hands. I'm also really glad Ken got the final right, even though it didn't matter. Having James get the FJ wrong while Ken got it right made the win feel a lot more deserving. If they had both gotten it wrong, then it would have felt like, "If the FJs were just switched between match 1 and match 2, James would've won!" I'd much rather have the game end based on a correct v. incorrect answer.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by georgespelvin »

James, Ken and Brad have known each other for years through trivia competition circles so I don't think that the jab was meant to be mean-spirited (that said, I understand that James is not personally popular in at least some of those circles and the fact that Brad had suffered so through the competition up to that point does make the comment look particularly ill-timed).

Here's something that will make you groan. I actually saw a post and discussion on Facebook which put forth the assertion that James lost on purpose (which, of course, is ironic because back in 2004 there were a lot of folks that didn't know better than claimed that Ken ended his 74 game streak on purpose). I responded and put them in their place (nicely) by explaining why that was ridiculous.

I think I knew fewer correct responses by far in the first game of yesterday's match than I ever have in all the decades I've been watching Jeopardy (including the Art Fleming game). One of the games of this tournament I did pretty well, but most of the time I was buried by the obscura (at least as far as Jeopardy games go). I did get very excited when I got what appeared to me to be a hard get though (can't think of them at the moment but there were some).

I'm glad Ken won. He made Jeopardy cool again to the masses in 2004 and he never got a chance to play a regular ToC like James which he (like James) would have smoked. Also, Ken fits the persona of Geek Hero more to me than James does. James seems more like the guy that would kick sand in your face on the beach and take away your date. Brad also is more the Geek Hero type than James, but Ken is Central Casting (and I mean that in a good way and as a high compliment being a geek myself).
I used to be AWSOP but wanted to be more theatrical.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by MitchO »

davey wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:49 am
Surprised that James missed that last FJ. I guess he was thinking that since Hamlet is the longest play, it must have the most supporting speeches. It looks like James was right that Horatio has the most speeches after Hamlet. I would have thought it was Claudius, myself...he has almost, but not quite, as many...Polonius is quite far behind...
Cladius was my pick.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Mark B »

reddpen wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:32 am

Hats off, crown on to Ken! I only wish it could have lasted longer, because that's the best Jeopardy! we're ever likely to see.
Couldn't agree more with my old pal redpenn here.

This thought came to me last night after the episode aired:

The correct response to the FJ was "Who is Iago?"

The writers sometimes put in 'theme' answers during tournaments for FJs. They might just have been going for that here, albeit obliquely.

I can certainly picture any of these three witty gentlemen coming up with "Who is Iago@" or quipping "I would have written 'Who is I-a-go (at)' but feared being ruled incorrect for the extraneous letters."

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by yclept »

talkingaway wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:52 am
econgator wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:38 am
Ironhorse wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:14 am
I don't understand Ken betting 0 in a wheelhouse category (Shakespeare). It was no secret what James was going to bet.
Why should Ken bet? He couldn't catch James. Bet zero and hope he gets it wrong.
James was "in control of his fate" - he can amass about 122K points, while Ken can only get about 111K points. So, if James gets FJ! right, he can win.

If James gets FJ! wrong, he can retain at most 78181 by betting 0. Ken's holdover of 65+K, plus his current score of 23K, beat that.

Thus, Ken's response is completely irrelevant, and he may as well bet 0. Nothing he can bet can counter an optimal wager from James combined with a correct answer, and if James is wrong, betting 0 means he wins anyway.

Food for thought: Was Brad sandbagging it in the second game? With a score of 0 in the first game, it's almost impossible for him to win the match. His best hope is to let James be James and force a fifth game. Brad scoring points takes away from the points available for Holzjennhauerings, and the more points available, the more points James can get to try and make a comeback and beat Ken's great showing in game 1. And it almost worked!
In DJ, Brad started at the top of the board which was a sign to me that he was not going to try to “block” James or Ken from finding the DDs....

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Hugo Z »

Wonder if it's occurred to anyone that they could take this show on the road...

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by yclept »

Great tournament. I remember commenting that it would be “funny” if James, with his unreal FJ history, would end up losing this thing by missing a FJ. And to lose on Shakespeare, which is the same topic that Emma ended his incredible run on.

Given what I have seen on Twitter, James’ banter towards Brad was very appropriate. The burns were a part of the fun and I doubt Brad cared one bit, so why should we?

Brad finding and missing big Daily Doubles all week was shocking. Yes, Ken and James completely outclassed him on the buzzer - but Brad was still finding the Daily Doubles and had his chances to at least put up competitive scores....

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by yclept »

floridagator wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:14 pm
OntarioQuizzer wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:05 pm
floridagator wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:03 pm
What happened to my post?
It was a major spoiler prior to it airing in the US, so I removed it. Now that it has aired, you are welcome to re-post it.
The entire thread is marked "spoiler."


We've learned that James's strategy is very effective at knocking out middle-aged women from Dubuque, but it is not especially competitive with the likes of the greatest. If the other contestants know in advance that he is going to hit the high-dollar clues first, they can do it too, and if they can keep the Daily Doubles away from him, that basically ruins his strategy.
He was still within one answer of forcing a deciding Game 5 so I am not sure if we can say it isn’t especially competitive against the best of all-time. Naturally, we can say this kind of thing about any sports competition. “Yeah, you can run up and down the field against the Lions - but what happens when you face the 49ers?” Part of being great in any competition is stepping on the throats of those who are weaker than you are. I don’t think James had illusions that he was going to come in and destroy these two. Just like he knew that Emma was going to be a PITA in the TOC.

Ken is probably the best to ever play the game and being able to adjust to James’ strategies is part of being the best of all-time.

Kinda interesting that on DD2, Ken said it called for a more conservative strategy.... in the end, if he was aggressive and everything else played out the same way from that point forward, would he have been able to lock out James in FJ?

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by soxfan99 »

yclept wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:26 am
Kinda interesting that on DD2, Ken said it called for a more conservative strategy.... in the end, if he was aggressive and everything else played out the same way from that point forward, would he have been able to lock out James in FJ?
I thought the same thing, but James needed just about $16,000 more than Ken going into Final to be in the lead. As it was, he was $21,000 up. The $3,800 Ken left on the board with the DD wouldn't have been quite enough to close the gap, but it sure would have made the top two rows of $400 and $800 clues more interesting.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Don't Think Twice »

Congratulations to Ken! I figured when he won Friday's match that he would win the next match because he sorta spoiled it in his tweets!

On Sunday, Dec 8, Ken tweeted about the flight he was on. Then on Wednesday, December 11, he also tweeted about the flight he was on. So I figured that he taped the matches on December 9 and 10, probably no more than two full one-hour matches a day for a total of 4 matches. To be honest, when I figured it was four matches, I was sure James won until the tournament actually started and I saw how strong Ken was. In fact I think I voted for Ken in 4 matches on the poll here. I spoiled no one with this knowledge, not even my husband or the rest of my family!

So if you're ever in a Jeopardy tournament, watch what you tweet!

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 4 (1/14/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Ironhorse »

Thanks for the correction on my "math". Ken's wager now makes sense to me, inasmuch as I recognize it was inconsequential.

I did guess Iago, though not confidently. My main memory from reading Othello in high school was how Iago would not shut up, so... :lol:
Never been on J!, but once won a knockoff version that aired on local access TV.

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