Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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Woof
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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Woof » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:37 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:45 am
Woof wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:43 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:36 pm
Woof wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:01 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:48 pm


In increasing distance from Scandinavia: Estonia, Hungary, Turkey, and arguably Albania have umlauts in their languages too. [edit: not to mention Germany, which named the dang thing]
France and England have it, too, if you're willing to conflate the diaeresis symbol with the umlaut.
I am not.
In that case, you’d best lose Turkey (and perhaps Estonia) as that symbol doesn’t signify the elision of the letter e in a diphthong in that language.
It doesn't do that (whatever that means) in German either.
It most certainly does. Ö and Ü represent Oe and Ue, respectively, in German and other Germanic languages. In contrast, the Ö in Turkish represents an additional vowel sound and can't be replaced by Oe.

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alietr » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:49 pm

Woof wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:37 pm
It most certainly does. Ö and Ü represent Oe and Ue, respectively, in German and other Germanic languages. In contrast, the Ö in Turkish represents an additional vowel sound and can't be replaced by Oe.
Thus sayeth the Boardie that spells 'fish' as 'ghoti'.

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Woof » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:25 pm

alietr wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:49 pm
Woof wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:37 pm
It most certainly does. Ö and Ü represent Oe and Ue, respectively, in German and other Germanic languages. In contrast, the Ö in Turkish represents an additional vowel sound and can't be replaced by Oe.
Thus sayeth the Boardie that spells 'fish' as 'ghoti'.
Irony abounds, Andy. :mrgreen:

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:07 pm

Woof wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:37 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:45 am
Woof wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:43 pm
In that case, you’d best lose Turkey (and perhaps Estonia) as that symbol doesn’t signify the elision of the letter e in a diphthong in that language.
It doesn't do that (whatever that means) in German either.
It most certainly does. Ö and Ü represent Oe and Ue, respectively, in German and other Germanic languages. In contrast, the Ö in Turkish represents an additional vowel sound and can't be replaced by Oe.
Those were never diphthongs.

The difference between an umlaut and a diaeresis is that an umlaut fundamentally changes a vowel sound whereas a diaeresis indicates that the vowel (along with a vowel preceding it, frequently) is pronounced as if it were in a different context. Now, the linguistic concept of umlaut is a Germanic thing, yes, and strictly speaking the umlaut as diacritic only truly counts as such when appearing in words that exhibit that concept, but I'm comfortable using "umlaut" to refer to a double-dot diacritic that changes a vowel to a sound it never makes without its dots in its language. (The Wikipedia article, for example, cites the Albanian ë as having a non-umlaut, non-diaeresis double dot, but it doesn't bother me to call it an umlaut because the letter is pronounced as a schwa and the Albanian e isn't.)

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Woof » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:56 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:07 pm
Woof wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:37 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:45 am
Woof wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:43 pm
In that case, you’d best lose Turkey (and perhaps Estonia) as that symbol doesn’t signify the elision of the letter e in a diphthong in that language.
It doesn't do that (whatever that means) in German either.
It most certainly does. Ö and Ü represent Oe and Ue, respectively, in German and other Germanic languages. In contrast, the Ö in Turkish represents an additional vowel sound and can't be replaced by Oe.
Those were never diphthongs.
Huh?? Do you pronounce ä, ö or ü as two syllables?
The difference between an umlaut and a diaeresis is that an umlaut fundamentally changes a vowel sound whereas a diaeresis indicates that the vowel (along with a vowel preceding it, frequently) is pronounced as if it were in a different context.
Of course. I was never disputing that. Umlauts and diaereses are in fact almost precisely opposite in effect.
Now, the linguistic concept of umlaut is a Germanic thing, yes, and strictly speaking the umlaut as diacritic only truly counts as such when appearing in words that exhibit that concept, but I'm comfortable using "umlaut" to refer to a double-dot diacritic that changes a vowel to a sound it never makes without its dots in its language. (The Wikipedia article, for example, cites the Albanian ë as having a non-umlaut, non-diaeresis double dot, but it doesn't bother me to call it an umlaut because the letter is pronounced as a schwa and the Albanian e isn't.)
OK, I get where you're coming from. I don't know that you'd get a lot of agreement with that expansive definition of an umlaut from linguists, but whatevs. As long as you are with me on disparaging the notion of a "heavy metal umlaut" we can call it quits.

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:57 pm

Woof wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:56 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:07 pm
Woof wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:37 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:45 am
Woof wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:43 pm
In that case, you’d best lose Turkey (and perhaps Estonia) as that symbol doesn’t signify the elision of the letter e in a diphthong in that language.
It doesn't do that (whatever that means) in German either.
It most certainly does. Ö and Ü represent Oe and Ue, respectively, in German and other Germanic languages. In contrast, the Ö in Turkish represents an additional vowel sound and can't be replaced by Oe.
Those were never diphthongs.
Huh?? Do you pronounce ä, ö or ü as two syllables?
I don't pronounce them as two syllables. Are you saying they were ever pronounced as "ay" (as in "say"), "oy," and "uy" (as in the Spanish "muy") respectively?

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Woof » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:13 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:57 pm
Woof wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:56 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:07 pm
Woof wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:37 pm

It most certainly does. Ö and Ü represent Oe and Ue, respectively, in German and other Germanic languages. In contrast, the Ö in Turkish represents an additional vowel sound and can't be replaced by Oe.
Those were never diphthongs.
Huh?? Do you pronounce ä, ö or ü as two syllables?
I don't pronounce them as two syllables. Are you saying they were ever pronounced as "ay" (as in "say"), "oy," and "uy" (as in the Spanish "muy") respectively?
No, I'm merely trying to understand the statement above that they aren't diphthongs. Care to elaborate?

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:36 pm

Woof wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:13 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:57 pm
Woof wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:56 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:07 pm
Woof wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:37 pm

It most certainly does. Ö and Ü represent Oe and Ue, respectively, in German and other Germanic languages. In contrast, the Ö in Turkish represents an additional vowel sound and can't be replaced by Oe.
Those were never diphthongs.
Huh?? Do you pronounce ä, ö or ü as two syllables?
I don't pronounce them as two syllables. Are you saying they were ever pronounced as "ay" (as in "say"), "oy," and "uy" (as in the Spanish "muy") respectively?
No, I'm merely trying to understand the statement above that they aren't diphthongs. Care to elaborate?
"Ay," "oy," and "uy" are diphthongs, each being the sound of one vowel gliding into another in the space of a syllable, whereas ä, ö, and ü are each a single sound.

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Woof » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:44 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:36 pm
Woof wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:13 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:57 pm
Woof wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:56 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:07 pm


Those were never diphthongs.
Huh?? Do you pronounce ä, ö or ü as two syllables?
I don't pronounce them as two syllables. Are you saying they were ever pronounced as "ay" (as in "say"), "oy," and "uy" (as in the Spanish "muy") respectively?
No, I'm merely trying to understand the statement above that they aren't diphthongs. Care to elaborate?
"Ay," "oy," and "uy" are diphthongs, each being the sound of one vowel gliding into another in the space of a syllable, whereas ä, ö, and ü are each a single sound.
Do you think that ea is a diphthong? How about ai? And if you don't think that ö is the sound of two vowels gliding into each other, you must pronounce it differently than I do. The German umlaut is a specific form of regressive metaphony, which to my way of thinking is clear diphthong territory. To elaborate my view: diaeresis and diphthong lie in opposition to one another: coop is a diphthong and coöp is a diaeresis.

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:49 pm

Woof wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:44 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:36 pm
Woof wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:13 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:57 pm
Woof wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:56 pm


Huh?? Do you pronounce ä, ö or ü as two syllables?
I don't pronounce them as two syllables. Are you saying they were ever pronounced as "ay" (as in "say"), "oy," and "uy" (as in the Spanish "muy") respectively?
No, I'm merely trying to understand the statement above that they aren't diphthongs. Care to elaborate?
"Ay," "oy," and "uy" are diphthongs, each being the sound of one vowel gliding into another in the space of a syllable, whereas ä, ö, and ü are each a single sound.
Do you think that ea is a diphthong? How about ai? And if you don't think that ö is the sound of two vowels gliding into each other, you must pronounce it differently than I do. The German umlaut is a specific form of regressive metaphony, which to my way of thinking is clear diphthong territory. To elaborate my view: diaeresis and diphthong lie in opposition to one another: coop is a diphthong and coöp is a diaeresis.
Yeah, your use of "coop" as an example makes it obvious you're not totally clear on the concept of diphthongs.

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Woof » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:27 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:49 pm
Woof wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:44 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:36 pm
Woof wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:13 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:57 pm


I don't pronounce them as two syllables. Are you saying they were ever pronounced as "ay" (as in "say"), "oy," and "uy" (as in the Spanish "muy") respectively?
No, I'm merely trying to understand the statement above that they aren't diphthongs. Care to elaborate?
"Ay," "oy," and "uy" are diphthongs, each being the sound of one vowel gliding into another in the space of a syllable, whereas ä, ö, and ü are each a single sound.
Do you think that ea is a diphthong? How about ai? And if you don't think that ö is the sound of two vowels gliding into each other, you must pronounce it differently than I do. The German umlaut is a specific form of regressive metaphony, which to my way of thinking is clear diphthong territory. To elaborate my view: diaeresis and diphthong lie in opposition to one another: coop is a diphthong and coöp is a diaeresis.
Yeah, your use of "coop" as an example makes it obvious you're not totally clear on the concept of diphthongs.
I think I understand it just fine. You just happen to disagree with me on that point, as I do with you on the definition of what constitutes an umlaut.

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:11 pm

Woof wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:27 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:49 pm
Woof wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:44 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:36 pm
Woof wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:13 pm


No, I'm merely trying to understand the statement above that they aren't diphthongs. Care to elaborate?
"Ay," "oy," and "uy" are diphthongs, each being the sound of one vowel gliding into another in the space of a syllable, whereas ä, ö, and ü are each a single sound.
Do you think that ea is a diphthong? How about ai? And if you don't think that ö is the sound of two vowels gliding into each other, you must pronounce it differently than I do. The German umlaut is a specific form of regressive metaphony, which to my way of thinking is clear diphthong territory. To elaborate my view: diaeresis and diphthong lie in opposition to one another: coop is a diphthong and coöp is a diaeresis.
Yeah, your use of "coop" as an example makes it obvious you're not totally clear on the concept of diphthongs.
I think I understand it just fine. You just happen to disagree with me on that point, as I do with you on the definition of what constitutes an umlaut.
You think you do, but I know you don't.
IPA:
coop = kuːp
Mädchen = ˈmɛːtçən or ˈmeːtçən
schön = ʃøːn
fünf = fʏnf (or colloquially fʏmf)

None of those have more than one vowel sound in any of their syllables. A single vowel sound by definition is not a diphthong.

Edit: I've found that "diphthong" has meaning in orthography as well as prosody. I withdraw my "coop" criticism with apologies, but stand by my assertion that the German umlauted characters are not diphthongs (except when written as ae, oe, and ue).

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Woof » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:53 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:11 pm
Woof wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:27 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:49 pm
Woof wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:44 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:36 pm


"Ay," "oy," and "uy" are diphthongs, each being the sound of one vowel gliding into another in the space of a syllable, whereas ä, ö, and ü are each a single sound.
Do you think that ea is a diphthong? How about ai? And if you don't think that ö is the sound of two vowels gliding into each other, you must pronounce it differently than I do. The German umlaut is a specific form of regressive metaphony, which to my way of thinking is clear diphthong territory. To elaborate my view: diaeresis and diphthong lie in opposition to one another: coop is a diphthong and coöp is a diaeresis.
Yeah, your use of "coop" as an example makes it obvious you're not totally clear on the concept of diphthongs.
I think I understand it just fine. You just happen to disagree with me on that point, as I do with you on the definition of what constitutes an umlaut.
You think you do, but I know you don't.
IPA:
coop = kuːp
Mädchen = ˈmɛːtçən or ˈmeːtçən
schön = ʃøːn
fünf = fʏnf (or colloquially fʏmf)

None of those have more than one vowel sound in any of their syllables. A single vowel sound by definition is not a diphthong.

Edit: I've found that "diphthong" has meaning in orthography as well as prosody. I withdraw my "coop" criticism with apologies, but stand by my assertion that the German umlauted characters are not diphthongs (except when written as ae, oe, and ue).
Yes, in a strict linguistic sense a diphthong involves a change in the mouth during the vowel sound but it has also come to mean monosyllabic vowel digraphs. I am confused though by the distinction you draw between an umlauted vowel and a vowel followed by e, since in German they are interchangable and don’t change pronunciation.

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:43 am

Woof wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:53 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:11 pm
Edit: I've found that "diphthong" has meaning in orthography as well as prosody. I withdraw my "coop" criticism with apologies, but stand by my assertion that the German umlauted characters are not diphthongs (except when written as ae, oe, and ue).
Yes, in a strict linguistic sense a diphthong involves a change in the mouth during the vowel sound but it has also come to mean monosyllabic vowel digraphs. I am confused though by the distinction you draw between an umlauted vowel and a vowel followed by e, since in German they are interchangable and don’t change pronunciation.
I make the distinction because of the orthographic definition. The ä, ö, and ü are not diphthongs in pronunciation or writing, but ae, oe, and ue are diphthongs (only) in writing.

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by OrangeSAM » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:22 am

I think all logic, reason and restraint in this thread have flown the coop. Or is it coöp?
OCSam

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:59 am

OrangeSAM wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:22 am
I think all logic, reason and restraint in this thread have flown the coop. Or is it coöp?
Image
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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Woof » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:02 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:43 am
Woof wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:53 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:11 pm
Edit: I've found that "diphthong" has meaning in orthography as well as prosody. I withdraw my "coop" criticism with apologies, but stand by my assertion that the German umlauted characters are not diphthongs (except when written as ae, oe, and ue).
Yes, in a strict linguistic sense a diphthong involves a change in the mouth during the vowel sound but it has also come to mean monosyllabic vowel digraphs. I am confused though by the distinction you draw between an umlauted vowel and a vowel followed by e, since in German they are interchangable and don’t change pronunciation.
I make the distinction because of the orthographic definition. The ä, ö, and ü are not diphthongs in pronunciation or writing, but ae, oe, and ue are diphthongs (only) in writing.
I can see the argument with ö as saying it doesn't require a repositioning of the tongue (at least as I pronounce it), but ü and ä both qualify as linguistic diphthongs in the same way that linguists consider lure and lay to contain diphthongs.

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by floridagator » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:16 pm

Finnish is of the Finno-Ugric language group, while the other Scandinavian languages are Indo-European.

I once knew a Jeopardy champion whose favorite adjective is finno-ugric.
I'd rather cuddle then have sex. If you're into grammar, you'll understand.

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:57 pm

mas3cf wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:33 am
This Is Kirk! wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:00 pm
Definitely didn't think that FJ would be a triple stumper!
I'm not overly surprised. On one hand, Marquess of Queensberry/Queensberry rules is something one should be sure to know before going on the show, given the Marquess's connections with both boxing and Oscar Wilde... on the other hand, it seems sports is like Kryptonite for the majority of Jeopardy contestants.
I've never been a boxing fan, but I knew this because 1) as others have noted, its usage has gone beyond sports to suggest any activity with (perhaps overly formal) rules to follow, and 2) as you note, this Marquess is the one who, enraged that his son was involved with Oscar Wilde, insulted the writer by leaving a calling card referring to Wilde as a "somdomite." (With such a creative gift for spelling, maybe he wouldn't mind if some of us thought his name was Queensbury...) Wilde unwisely sued for libel, and Douglas collected evidence against Wilde that later led to his downfall and imprisonment. A fascinating story...

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Re: Monday, February 10, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:01 pm

Woof wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:02 pm
I can see the argument with ö as saying it doesn't require a repositioning of the tongue (at least as I pronounce it), but ü and ä both qualify as linguistic diphthongs in the same way that linguists consider lure and lay to contain diphthongs.
Apples and oranges. Most English "long vowels" are diphthongs unto themselves. No single letter in German is a diphthong (as evidenced by the IPA spellings with one vowel to a syllable that I shared upthread); if you pronounce them as such you're probably speaking German with an American accent.

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