Friday, April 3, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

[AFRET CMS]

Lately many of the games have been uninspiring. I’m glad to finally see a repeat winner but who would think Hearst was a Hungarian? When his descendant Patty Hearst was kidnapped much was made of her pedigree.

I got Pulitzer instantly but that quote is a whole lot of nothing.

In defense of those who went with Hearst, the clue said "Hungarian-born," and did not specify "Hungarian." John McCain was born in Panama, but is not Panamanian. Hearst's father was a mining engineer. Though he didn't travel the world on assignments, many engineers do.

[cthulhu]

Obviously FJ was between Hearst and Pulitzer, but I knew that William Randolph Hearst was the son of a man who had made it big in US precious metals mining (thanks to Deadwood!). So I figured that Pulitzer was the right choice.

[A Wray]

If you're looking for something to watch (and aren't we all), the recent documentary Joseph Pulitzer: Voice of the People is a fascinating biography. I instagot FJ from having seen that.

In defense of those who went with Hearst, the clue said "Hungarian-born," and did not specify "Hungarian." John McCain was born in Panama, but is not Panamanian. Hearst's father was a mining engineer. Though he didn't travel the world on assignments, many engineers do.

McCain wasn't born in the country of Panama. He was born in the "Panama Canal Zone," which was then a U.S. territory, and thus he was American-born.

[Woof]

I certainly know the French word for love, but I've never heard amour used for an affair, so I personally guessed it haltingly.

Same here. On further consideration, I thought of the related term paramour as a possible entry.

[AFRET CMS]

If you're looking for something to watch (and aren't we all), the recent documentary Joseph Pulitzer: Voice of the People is a fascinating biography. I instagot FJ from having seen that.

In defense of those who went with Hearst, the clue said "Hungarian-born," and did not specify "Hungarian." John McCain was born in Panama, but is not Panamanian. Hearst's father was a mining engineer. Though he didn't travel the world on assignments, many engineers do.

McCain wasn't born in the country of Panama. He was born in the "Panama Canal Zone," which was then a U.S. territory, and thus he was American-born.

Actually, the Canal Zone was a "non-incorporated territory administered by the U.S." and did not have the same organized territorial status as Guam or Puerto Rico. Persons born in Guam or Puerto Rico of any parentage are birthright U.S. citizens, just as is a person born in Iowa of non-citizens. Birth in the Canal Zone did not carry birthright U.S. citizenship; citizenship followed the parental citizenship. A baby born to Panamanian parents, or for instance to German parents working in the Canal Zone, would have been a Panamanian or a German citizen, respectively. McCain was a U.S. citizen only because at least one of his parents were.

More info (spoilered only due to length):

Spoiler

Citizenship

Although the Panama Canal Zone was legal territory of the United States[42] until the implementation of the Torrijos–Carter Treaties in 1979, questions arose almost from its inception as to whether it was considered part of the United States for constitutional purposes, or, in the phrase of the day, whether the Constitution followed the flag. In 1901 the US Supreme Court had ruled in Downes v. Bidwell that unincorporated territories are not the United States.[43] On July 28, 1904, Controller of the Treasury Robert Tracewell stated, "While the general spirit and purpose of the Constitution is applicable to the zone, that domain is not a part of the United States within the full meaning of the Constitution and laws of the country."[44] Accordingly, the Supreme Court held in 1905 in Rasmussen v. United States that the full Constitution only applies for incorporated territories of the United States.[45]

The treaty with Panama made no mention of the nationality status of the native inhabitants of the Zone.[46] Pursuant to the principles of international law, they became non-citizen U.S. nationals unless they elected to retain their previous nationality. Children of non-citizen U.S. nationals generally acquired the status of their parents. However, for most nationality purposes, the Canal Zone was considered to be foreign territory and the status persons acquired at birth was governed by the Naturalization Act of 1795, which granted them statutory US citizenship at birth but only if their fathers were, at the time of the child's birth, U.S. citizens who had previously resided in the United States. In 1934 the law was amended to allow for citizenship to be acquired at birth through either parent if the parent was a U.S. citizen who had previously resided in the United States. In 1937 the law was further amended to provide for US citizenship to persons born in the Canal Zone (since 1904) to a U.S. citizen parent without that parent needing to have been previously resident in the United States.[42] The law is now codified under title 8, section 1403.[47] It not only grants statutory and declaratory born citizenship to those born in the Canal Zone after February 26, 1904, of at least one US citizen parent, but also does so retroactively for all children born of at least one US citizen in the Canal Zone before the law's enactment.[48] This rule was later rendered moot when the rules were changed to state that (almost all) children born to U.S. citizens anywhere in the world were considered U.S citizens.[49]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal_Zone
(Footnotes in the extract refer to the original sources listed in the Wikipedia article)

None of which changes the original point -- Hearst could have been a "Hungarian-born" U.S. citizen if he had been born in Hungary even during a brief visit the country by his parents.

[Bamaman]

If Hearst had been born in Hungary because his mother just happened to be there when she went into labor and then immediately headed home, I doubt he would be referred to as Hungarian born in a Jeopardy clue.

[A Wray]

Thank you for the correction, AFRET CMS; I guess I should have written that McCain was "Panama Canal Zone-born." I was just pushing back on the assertion that he was "born in Panama," which is misleading.

If Hearst had been born in Hungary because his mother just happened to be there when she went into labor and then immediately headed home, I doubt he would be referred to as Hungarian born in a Jeopardy clue.

Yeah, this is the actual salient point. The writers put information in clues to lead contestants to the correct response, not to confuse them. You will never see this clue on Jeopardy:

This West German-born man reached five straight Wimbledon finals in the 1980s

Spoiler

Who is John McEnroe?

[AndyTheQuizzer]

You will never see this clue on Jeopardy:

This West German-born man won Wimbledon three times in the 1980s

Spoiler

Who is John McEnroe?

This isn't even pinned.

[A Wray]

You will never see this clue on Jeopardy:

This West German-born man won Wimbledon three times in the 1980s

Spoiler

Who is John McEnroe?

This isn't even pinned.

Argh, you're right. Fixed it.

[AFRET CMS]

If Hearst had been born in Hungary because his mother just happened to be there when she went into labor and then immediately headed home, I doubt he would be referred to as Hungarian born in a Jeopardy clue.

Good point, though they're not above a little negbait once in a while. But I don't think we'll have to worry about changing "TOM" to "TAM" (tease away metric) any time soon.

[AFRET CMS]

Thank you for the correction, AFRET CMS; I guess I should have written that McCain was "Panama Canal Zone-born." I was just pushing back on the assertion that he was "born in Panama," which is misleading.

If Hearst had been born in Hungary because his mother just happened to be there when she went into labor and then immediately headed home, I doubt he would be referred to as Hungarian born in a Jeopardy clue.

Yeah, this is the actual salient point. The writers put information in clues to lead contestants to the correct response, not to confuse them. You will never see this clue on Jeopardy:

This West German-born man reached five straight Wimbledon finals in the 1980s

Spoiler

Who is John McEnroe?

True for the most part -- though they were OK with this in "World Leader Portrait Gallery" for $1600:

"Born in Kiev, this woman guided her country during some of its most difficult mid-20th-century events"
http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=4899

Spoiler

Golda Meir

Though I'm sure the photo helped.

And just to reiterate my original point before we spend too much time in the rabbit hole -- I don't think Hearst was an unreasonable guess for someone who couldn't come up with Pulitzer. Based on the FJ poll, I assume about a quarter of the group might agree.

[davey]

Thank you for the correction, AFRET CMS; I guess I should have written that McCain was "Panama Canal Zone-born." I was just pushing back on the assertion that he was "born in Panama," which is misleading.

If Hearst had been born in Hungary because his mother just happened to be there when she went into labor and then immediately headed home, I doubt he would be referred to as Hungarian born in a Jeopardy clue.

Yeah, this is the actual salient point. The writers put information in clues to lead contestants to the correct response, not to confuse them. You will never see this clue on Jeopardy:

This West German-born man reached five straight Wimbledon finals in the 1980s

Spoiler

Who is John McEnroe?

True for the most part -- though they were OK with this in "World Leader Portrait Gallery" for $1600:

"Born in Kiev, this woman guided her country during some of its most difficult mid-20th-century events"
http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=4899

Spoiler

Golda Meir

Though I'm sure the photo helped.

And just to reiterate my original point before we spend too much time in the rabbit hole -- I don't think Hearst was an unreasonable guess for someone who couldn't come up with Pulitzer. Based on the FJ poll, I assume about a quarter of the group might agree.

"Born in Kiev" is the only thing in the clue that makes it gettable. Are there any notable female Russian leaders? In the 20th C.? But most of us know that many early Israeli leaders were born in Eastern Europe. They couldn't have been born in the state of Israel!
Hearst was probably the only other guess in the right time period for most.

[floridagator]

I would have said she was born in Milwaukee, so thank you for improving my Trivia database.

[MitchO]

Was there a tease out metric for University of Michigan or were we just supposed to recognize the song?

There was a sizeable chunk of its lyrics... I didn't even need the audio.

"Hail To The Victors" is likely the 2nd-most famous American college fight song behind Notre Dame's. I can't even think of which one might be 3rd...

Actually, I'd put the 3 service academies at 1-2-3, but for other colleges, I'd say maybe ... USC? UT?

I'd also put Notre Dame's and Michigan's first and second. Of the service academies, I know Navy's is "Anchors Aweigh", and if Army's and Air Force's are "The Caisson Song" and "Wild Blue Yonder" I know them, but I don't associate them primarily with fight songs.

As far as others, i know Yale's "Boola Boola" is also used by other schools that you'd think would come up with their own songs. "On Wisconsin" is famous enough to have been an FJ that I missed. I sort of learned Columbia's for the sake of my old job on the tour bus, but it was a rare day when I could get a sing-along going.

The only one I'd recognize instantly is Boomer Sooner (U of OK), because "Good Ol' JR", Jim Ross used it as his entrance music for WWE.