Tuesday, December 1, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

[alan tiger]

credit where credit is due.

as best i can remember, a tip o' the hat to t.j. for the most striking and colorful hairdo since my pal elaine wilson was champ in march 2019. i described her here as "the one with red hair."

[opusthepenguin]

So they've decided England is a nation, all by itself? I know there's some wiggle room on calling it a country, but nation?

Thought of Mediterranean for FJ but dismissed it as obviously silly. Why would the first flight cover a route hundreds of miles longer than was necessary? Surely someone took the obvious short route first to claim the distinction? Kudos to two of the contestants, I guess, for not being deterred by the stupidity of the correct response.

[opusthepenguin]

Loved Alex's opening. Reminds me of that insurance commercial with the "avoiding becoming your parents" guy...BLUE HAIR! I was impressed with TJ getting the Hoover clue right, as I had no clue - was there a TOM other than "Hoover worked in the Harding administration"?

"Albert Fall was crooked in the Interior". You're looking for a president a few years prior to Hoover who had a major scandal connected to the Department of the Interior. Warren G "Teapot Dome" Harding was the obvious guess.

[SBurrus]

Add me to the list of people who responded with English Channel...although I was sure that was not the correct response. And it wasn't!

[rockyboy34]

Sigh…Ryan had a great run.

7/10

Miscellaneous Notes:

My dad assumed that Denise is a Trump Supporter. Given that I also live in Yorba Linda, I wouldn’t blame him – there’s a bunch of ‘em in that city (I’m obviously not one of ‘em).

TJ’s incorrect Great Britain response gave me a good chuckle, even though my dad knew it was England.

[seaborgium]

Denise rounding down her FJ wager could have lost her the game, but T.J. rounding his up could have given it right back to her. I'm so glad to see him succeed!

[talkingaway]

Archive playthrough:

Coryat $39,200 (48R, 3W)
DD 3/3
FJ

Two negs on the $1200 row. Former Disney CEO = I had Michael Eisner. Famed canals + European city = went with Venice. Not sure if I had seen the photo if that would have helped.

I think you can, at the very least, remove any negative value from your archive playthrough guess of Venice. The canal was lit up at night, and looked quite modern. Here's an image search, IIRC the picture was fairly similar to any one of these:

https://www.google.com/search?q=amsterd ... 00&bih=743

Even without having seen a picture of the Venetian canals, you'd probably envision that they look, to use a technical architectural term, "old". You'd be right...and they're a lot narrower.

https://www.google.com/search?q=venice+ ... 43&dpr=2.4

I had the Venice pavlov too, but the picture looked so out of place that it was easily clammable. Since the picture isn't a neg...is it a pos?

[Volante]

Archive playthrough:

Coryat $39,200 (48R, 3W)
DD 3/3
FJ

Two negs on the $1200 row. Former Disney CEO = I had Michael Eisner. Famed canals + European city = went with Venice. Not sure if I had seen the photo if that would have helped.

I think you can, at the very least, remove any negative value from your archive playthrough guess of Venice. The canal was lit up at night, and looked quite modern. Here's an image search, IIRC the picture was fairly similar to any one of these:

https://www.google.com/search?q=amsterd ... 00&bih=743

Even without having seen a picture of the Venetian canals, you'd probably envision that they look, to use a technical architectural term, "old". You'd be right...and they're a lot narrower.

https://www.google.com/search?q=venice+ ... 43&dpr=2.4

I had the Venice pavlov too, but the picture looked so out of place that it was easily clammable. Since the picture isn't a neg...is it a pos?

I think this is close to the picture from the game...?
https://media.ndtrc.nl/Images/4c/4c2744 ... 9e9e32.jpg

But even without the picture, Venice is a no go: the clue said Western Europe

[davey]

Archive playthrough:

Coryat $39,200 (48R, 3W)
DD 3/3
FJ

Two negs on the $1200 row. Former Disney CEO = I had Michael Eisner. Famed canals + European city = went with Venice. Not sure if I had seen the photo if that would have helped.

I think you can, at the very least, remove any negative value from your archive playthrough guess of Venice. The canal was lit up at night, and looked quite modern. Here's an image search, IIRC the picture was fairly similar to any one of these:

https://www.google.com/search?q=amsterd ... 00&bih=743

Even without having seen a picture of the Venetian canals, you'd probably envision that they look, to use a technical architectural term, "old". You'd be right...and they're a lot narrower.

https://www.google.com/search?q=venice+ ... 43&dpr=2.4

I had the Venice pavlov too, but the picture looked so out of place that it was easily clammable. Since the picture isn't a neg...is it a pos?

More important than the photo was the description of "Western Europe." Italy would usually be called "Southern Europe," or at least that's what I told myself in the moment.
Not that I should be making geography pronouncements: I also said English Channel, while worrying that it was absurd, so I'm glad it seems to have been a popular response...

[bluejaylink]

Archive playthrough:

Coryat $39,200 (48R, 3W)
DD 3/3
FJ

Two negs on the $1200 row. Former Disney CEO = I had Michael Eisner. Famed canals + European city = went with Venice. Not sure if I had seen the photo if that would have helped.

I think you can, at the very least, remove any negative value from your archive playthrough guess of Venice. The canal was lit up at night, and looked quite modern. Here's an image search, IIRC the picture was fairly similar to any one of these:

https://www.google.com/search?q=amsterd ... 00&bih=743

Even without having seen a picture of the Venetian canals, you'd probably envision that they look, to use a technical architectural term, "old". You'd be right...and they're a lot narrower.

https://www.google.com/search?q=venice+ ... 43&dpr=2.4

I had the Venice pavlov too, but the picture looked so out of place that it was easily clammable. Since the picture isn't a neg...is it a pos?

I think this is close to the picture from the game...?
https://media.ndtrc.nl/Images/4c/4c2744 ... 9e9e32.jpg

But even without the picture, Venice is a no go: the clue said Western Europe

I think that's the exact picture from the game.

[BrigadierSolo13]

Since no one else has done it, I'll mention how much I absolutely LOVED the play T.J. and Denise had with OOOH...FIREWORKS! It's cheeky and hilarious yet doesn't slow down the game a bit, as proven by this being a full 61-clue game. I'm very excited to see T.J. have more fun tomorrow.

+1 negged with Michael Eisner

I agree that FJ was a toughie to tease out. My mental measuring stick had me rule out the English Channel quickly, so it came down to the Bay of Biscay or the Mediterranean. In the end, I went with the correct response simply because there didn't seem to be anything overly impressive with flying "across" the bay, since there's perfectly good land to use. Whether that was false logic or not, a get's a get.

[reddpen]

In the "neg" category - financial, first name Charles? Yup, I took the bait and went with Schwab. If I'd concentrated on the "bull" part, and was given time, I maybe could have fixed my thinking.

The clue mentioned "guys named Charles and Edmund," which I assumed meant the firm had two last names. At least they didn't include Messrs. Pierce, Fenner or Smith.

In Around the World, offering "Indonesian island" at $800--plus some stuff I've never heard of*--and expecting anyone to say Bali seems like a massive miscalculation. That should have been bottom row. Bali is maybe fourth on my list, after Borneo, Sumatra and Java, down there with Krakatoa and that other one that blew up, Tambora, which isn't even the name of the island. Poll request?

LT: homestretch (OK, on the rebound), Pirandello, Hoppin' John, snake, Flying Dutchman

On FJ, the distance pointed me toward the Mediterranean with no side trips. It's nice when the cluing aligns with the navigational path in your head, frustrating when it doesn't (in my case, Marshall last week). I wonder if this FJ will outpoll that one, currently at 67%.

*Nor has Wikipedia: Mount Agung doesn't even make their "Navel of the World" disambiguation list.

[This Is Kirk!]

The FJ! clue had me think of Gertrude Ederl's swimming feat and I could not imagine that matching the mileage given.

Good point. Her swim was 21 miles, if anyone was wondering. (I looked it up.)

Keep in mind that's the minimum distance. The actual swim is considerably longer due to the tides and currents.

Another interesting fact is the swim must be done in a normal swimsuit for it to be official (i.e. no wetsuits allowed). A lot of swimmers coat their bodies in grease, though. The water temp is around 60 degrees, which isn't too bad, but when you consider many swimmers are out there for about 12 hours, much of it during the night, it's a pretty incredible show of endurance.

[A Wray]

So they've decided England is a nation, all by itself? I know there's some wiggle room on calling it a country, but nation?

It is certainly a nation, just as Palestine and Kurdistan are nations.

na·tion (nā′shən)
3. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: "Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity" (Robert Conquest).

This meaning is actually older than the "sovereign state" definition that you're using.

[mas3cf]

More important than the photo was the description of "Western Europe." Italy would usually be called "Southern Europe," or at least that's what I told myself in the moment.
Not that I should be making geography pronouncements: I also said English Channel, while worrying that it was absurd, so I'm glad it seems to have been a popular response...

I had thought through the "Western Europe" part and was satisfied that Italy is a part of Western Europe. Indeed, if you do a Google image search for "Western Europe map" much of what comes up includes Italy, but not all. If you look for definitions, it is generally demarcated based on what was or wasn't part of the Eastern Bloc, and by that definition, Italy would be in Western Europe.

Of course, it's much less up for debate that the Netherlands is in Western Europe...

[LucarioSnooperVixey]

57 R (Missed Punk'd, Don Iger, and could not think of the right Superman actor.)
DD: 3/3
FJ:
LT: Homestretch, Elementary, Fishing, Luigi Pirandello, Bali, Terror, Hoppin' John, Snake, (The Flying Dutchman),

[heppm01]

For some reason AT&T TV showed a rerun of Mackenzie Jones (her seventh game I think).

Played off the archive. Knee-jerked English Channel for FJ! but remembered that swimming it is a "thing". Knew the Strait of Gibraltar was too narrow so that left the Mediterranean by default.

[mas3cf]

Interesting things I learned by reading more about the info in FJ:

In antiquity, the modern city of Bizerte was known as Hippo. But it is NOT the Hippo of St. Augustine. That city is now known as Annaba, Algeria.

The name Hippo derives from the Punic word for "harbor" which is why there are multiple Hippos.

[Picked Off]

Another one drowning in the English Channel over here.

[opusthepenguin]

So they've decided England is a nation, all by itself? I know there's some wiggle room on calling it a country, but nation?

It is certainly a nation, just as Palestine and Kurdistan are nations.

na·tion (nā′shən)
3. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: "Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity" (Robert Conquest).

This meaning is actually older than the "sovereign state" definition that you're using.

Interesting. Thanks. Would you say this definition is currently in use? I don't recall encountering the usage in contemporary sources, but that doesn't have to mean much. Searching the archive for the words Kurdistan and nation brings up one hit that turns out not to be relevant. (The clue referred to "Iraqi nationalists" and Kurdistan wasn't the correct response anyway.)

Searching for England and nation turns up more hits than I care to wade through. A similar search with Scotland produces a similar barrage, but my eye did fall on one relevant clue that wanted Rrrrrrrrobbie Burns in response to "national poet of Scotland". That seems fair since they define the "nation" in question right in the clue. I'd be interested and maybe a little surprised to find any other clue asking for a "nation" and requiring one of the 4 countries of the UK as the response. Note, that's "requiring" as in the clue under discussion, not "accepting" where it was clear or at least assumed that UK would also be acceptable.

For anyone sympathetic to my concern, how might the clue be reworded? "John Bull is the personification of this nation" was the original. While defensible, as friend A Wray ably points out, it still doesn't sit right with me. Changing "nation" to "country" is an improvement but still, in my view, not great. My inclination would be to rewrite the whole thing. Maybe "The US has Uncle Sam. England personifies itself in this character." That might seem a slightly tougher clue since it requires the contestant to come up with the name John Bull rather than just knowing what... geopolitical entity he's associated with. But the category is FEELING BULLISH, so I'd say that helps out quite a bit.