Time to cut off ToC...

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hansenkd
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Time to cut off ToC...

Post by hansenkd »

No more messing around. If the ToC is 15 in regular syndication, they have to cut it off after Ryan, especially if the second chance winner is an autobid for this one and not the next.

John Focht and Jackie Kelly were in a different class from the other 4x winners, and their slots should be secured. Focht was the first one on the list, is somehow still there, and won over $100,000. Jackie was an elite player and potential super champion, and had a fluke Emma Boettcher-like loss.

As I recall, Ryan Bilger and Sam Kavanaugh were summer 2019 contestants and were held for the 2021 ToC, not placed in the 2019 one. We are at a similar point here. Cut it off after Ryan Long.
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triviawayne
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by triviawayne »

The season doesn't end until mid-July, what if Ryan loses today, and the new champ goes on a 20 game streak? Won't make sense not to have that person in November's TOC.

Ryan and Sam were in a different time, when the TOC wasn't announced as a yearly event.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by floridagator »

Dude. It's an effing game. Having four time champs in that tournament means they didn't get enough 5-time Champs. 4 time Champs are excess baggage.
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hansenkd
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by hansenkd »

Why the hostility?

John Focht and Jackie Kelly are far superior players to the 4x champs in the last TOC. Jackie is truly great, far from "excess baggage." They should be in.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by MattKnowles »

hansenkd wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 1:12 am Why the hostility?
Common courtesy and civility have been on a sharp decline ever since the invention of the internet. It's nothing personal.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by BigDaddyMatty »

hansenkd wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 1:12 am Why the hostility?

John Focht and Jackie Kelly are far superior players to the 4x champs in the last TOC. Jackie is truly great, far from "excess baggage." They should be in.
I haven't seen these episodes, so I'm just going off a quick review of the Archive, but John lost the Coryat battle in three of his five games. He went 7/8 on DDs, but only 3/5 on FJ! That doesn't sound like the profile of a player that is a must-have in the ToC.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by MattKnowles »

BigDaddyMatty wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:28 am
hansenkd wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 1:12 am Why the hostility?

John Focht and Jackie Kelly are far superior players to the 4x champs in the last TOC. Jackie is truly great, far from "excess baggage." They should be in.
I haven't seen these episodes, so I'm just going off a quick review of the Archive, but John lost the Coryat battle in three of his five games. He went 7/8 on DDs, but only 3/5 on FJ! That doesn't sound like the profile of a player that is a must-have in the ToC.
He was the only 4-day champion in a stretch of about 100 games and that is probably helping with the perception that he was an especially strong champion.
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triviawayne
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by triviawayne »

BigDaddyMatty wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:28 am
hansenkd wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 1:12 am Why the hostility?

John Focht and Jackie Kelly are far superior players to the 4x champs in the last TOC. Jackie is truly great, far from "excess baggage." They should be in.
I haven't seen these episodes, so I'm just going off a quick review of the Archive, but John lost the Coryat battle in three of his five games. He went 7/8 on DDs, but only 3/5 on FJ! That doesn't sound like the profile of a player that is a must-have in the ToC.
doesn't matter, qualified is qualified, and Coryat has nothing to do with that. If strength based on whatever numbers other than wins/money won matters, considering his well-known luck, should our current superchamp be in the TOC?
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by jeff6286 »

triviawayne wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 9:38 am
BigDaddyMatty wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:28 am
hansenkd wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 1:12 am Why the hostility?

John Focht and Jackie Kelly are far superior players to the 4x champs in the last TOC. Jackie is truly great, far from "excess baggage." They should be in.
I haven't seen these episodes, so I'm just going off a quick review of the Archive, but John lost the Coryat battle in three of his five games. He went 7/8 on DDs, but only 3/5 on FJ! That doesn't sound like the profile of a player that is a must-have in the ToC.
doesn't matter, qualified is qualified, and Coryat has nothing to do with that. If strength based on whatever numbers other than wins/money won matters, considering his well-known luck, should our current superchamp be in the TOC?
No one was saying John or Jackie is NOT worthy. This was a counteragument to the claim that they are SO worthy that the qualifying period should be cut off several months in advance in order to assure their qualification.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by hansenkd »

jeff6286 wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 12:38 pm
triviawayne wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 9:38 am
BigDaddyMatty wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:28 am
hansenkd wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 1:12 am Why the hostility?

John Focht and Jackie Kelly are far superior players to the 4x champs in the last TOC. Jackie is truly great, far from "excess baggage." They should be in.
I haven't seen these episodes, so I'm just going off a quick review of the Archive, but John lost the Coryat battle in three of his five games. He went 7/8 on DDs, but only 3/5 on FJ! That doesn't sound like the profile of a player that is a must-have in the ToC.
doesn't matter, qualified is qualified, and Coryat has nothing to do with that. If strength based on whatever numbers other than wins/money won matters, considering his well-known luck, should our current superchamp be in the TOC?
No one was saying John or Jackie is NOT worthy. This was a counteragument to the claim that they are SO worthy that the qualifying period should be cut off several months in advance in order to assure their qualification.
And the counterargument to that is the precedent of 2019, where a summer cutoff was done to get Emma Boettcher in with several 4x winners. The teen tournament aired that June (and oddly there hasn't been another one since), which mitigated the earliness somewhat, but any 5x or 4x champ following Ryan will fall in roughly the same time frame as Ryan and Sam, who had to wait for 2021.

Another counterargument is that the lowest-earning 4x champ in the last tournament ended up making the finals when a 19-day and two 8-day winners did not.

There is an argument that Focht is not strong enough for a guarantee, but his status as the only qualifier for such a long stretch during that unsettled post-Alex period does work in his favor.

I don't think there is any valid argument for keeping Jackie out.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by seaborgium »

hansenkd wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:36 pm And the counterargument to that is the precedent of 2019, where a summer cutoff was done to get Emma Boettcher in with several 4x winners.
They didn't do an early cutoff to get Emma in the ToC; she was put ahead of seven 4x champs during the same qualifying period.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by triviawayne »

seaborgium wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:25 am
hansenkd wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:36 pm And the counterargument to that is the precedent of 2019, where a summer cutoff was done to get Emma Boettcher in with several 4x winners.
They didn't do an early cutoff to get Emma in the ToC; she was put ahead of seven 4x champs during the same qualifying period.
With the excuse of “it’s always been an invitational tournament”
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hansenkd
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by hansenkd »

seaborgium wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:25 am
hansenkd wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:36 pm And the counterargument to that is the precedent of 2019, where a summer cutoff was done to get Emma Boettcher in with several 4x winners.
They didn't do an early cutoff to get Emma in the ToC; she was put ahead of seven 4x champs during the same qualifying period.
At any rate, the cutoff was around the same time frame, and we have two 4x champs who clearly stand out above the others.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by Bamaman »

Now I hope Ryan loses soon and is followed by two five time champs.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by BobF »

I’d almost like to see it cut now and make Ryan first qualifier of 2023 TOC.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by BigDaddyMatty »

hansenkd wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:32 am
seaborgium wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:25 am
hansenkd wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:36 pm And the counterargument to that is the precedent of 2019, where a summer cutoff was done to get Emma Boettcher in with several 4x winners.
They didn't do an early cutoff to get Emma in the ToC; she was put ahead of seven 4x champs during the same qualifying period.
At any rate, the cutoff was around the same time frame, and we have two 4x champs who clearly stand out above the others.
That doesn't appear to be true. Here are the dates of the first episode of each of the last several ToCs, along with the number of days since the previous ToC:
2/13/13 (469)
11/10/14 (635)
11/9/15 (364)
11/6/17 (728)
11/4/19 (728) (Emma's ToC)
5/17/21 (560)

If the next ToC covered as many days as Emma's, it would begin 5/15/23. Even if it covered the same length of time as did the most recent ToC, that would give us a start date of 11/28/22. Either way, we're likely several months (six weeks of which will be the summer hiatus, of course) from the cutoff date.
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triviawayne
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by triviawayne »

It has been stated that the TOC will be in November, and held every year.

It has been stated it is for the previous year (either year since last TOC or season, don't remember, don't care to look).

While there is a tracker, what we have not had confirmed anywhere is how large the field will be.

Either way, calls for cutting off now aren't going to happen, and it doesn't matter what has been done in the past.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by yclept »

triviawayne wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:57 pm It has been stated that the TOC will be in November, and held every year.

It has been stated it is for the previous year (either year since last TOC or season, don't remember, don't care to look).

While there is a tracker, what we have not had confirmed anywhere is how large the field will be.

Either way, calls for cutting off now aren't going to happen, and it doesn't matter what has been done in the past.
While they could expand the field, the official tracker continues to knock players off when they are no longer in the Top 15.

Do I want Jackie in the tournament? No doubt she has the ability to not only be competitive but to make a run even in a field of super champions. It just sucks for her that 4-day champions can every well be shut out of the field.

That is where the Second Chance Tournament comes in and who exactly is going to qualify for it. We know they want people who put in big efforts against strong champions, only to lose. We know that the one college player who was shut out of the finals due to the quirkiness of the tournament will get a bid. How do they feel about near-qualifiers for the TOC? I would find it a bit silly to leave the 4x champions out of it. While it sucks to be a strong player who runs into a historical champion, the bottom line is that the 4x players have a stronger claim to be in the TOC and should be given their chance to get in.

As for past qualifiers and what not, we should all agree that Emma was a very special case. They couldn’t justify adding Nancy Zerg after she beat Ken, but it is easier to justify Emma. I don’t see a reason why Jackie would be a special case.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by Ironhorse »

Michael Davies said the Second Chance Tournament would feed at least one player. Should we not see another five game winner, Jackie could still be shut out in favor of that tournament's runner up.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by triviawayne »

yclept wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:53 am
triviawayne wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:57 pm It has been stated that the TOC will be in November, and held every year.

It has been stated it is for the previous year (either year since last TOC or season, don't remember, don't care to look).

While there is a tracker, what we have not had confirmed anywhere is how large the field will be.

Either way, calls for cutting off now aren't going to happen, and it doesn't matter what has been done in the past.
While they could expand the field, the official tracker continues to knock players off when they are no longer in the Top 15.

Do I want Jackie in the tournament? No doubt she has the ability to not only be competitive but to make a run even in a field of super champions. It just sucks for her that 4-day champions can every well be shut out of the field.

That is where the Second Chance Tournament comes in and who exactly is going to qualify for it. We know they want people who put in big efforts against strong champions, only to lose. We know that the one college player who was shut out of the finals due to the quirkiness of the tournament will get a bid. How do they feel about near-qualifiers for the TOC? I would find it a bit silly to leave the 4x champions out of it. While it sucks to be a strong player who runs into a historical champion, the bottom line is that the 4x players have a stronger claim to be in the TOC and should be given their chance to get in.

As for past qualifiers and what not, we should all agree that Emma was a very special case. They couldn’t justify adding Nancy Zerg after she beat Ken, but it is easier to justify Emma. I don’t see a reason why Jackie would be a special case.
The fact that the tracker is showing 15, while it is known the 2nd chance winner will be in tells me not to take the tracker as the full field.
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