Time to cut off ToC...

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finishemzoe
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by finishemzoe »

I would wait til the end of the season and if Jackie is still in the running by then, cut it off. That's what they used to do anyway back when it was a season-by-season basis. But yeah, losing Jackie would be a travesty imo. If there's another streak after Eric then they'll probably have to cut it off by then right?
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finishemzoe
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by finishemzoe »

Ironhorse wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:01 am Michael Davies said the Second Chance Tournament would feed at least one player. Should we not see another five game winner, Jackie could still be shut out in favor of that tournament's runner up.
I would absolutely hate this tbh. If you couldn't win the first time, and then you lose the second time, why should you get an invitation to a tournament with actual winners? Just put Jackie in ffs.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by MarkBarrett »

finishemzoe wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:56 pm
Ironhorse wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:01 am Michael Davies said the Second Chance Tournament would feed at least one player. Should we not see another five game winner, Jackie could still be shut out in favor of that tournament's runner up.
I would absolutely hate this tbh. If you couldn't win the first time, and then you lose the second time, why should you get an invitation to a tournament with actual winners? Just put Jackie in ffs.
You want Jackie in? How about invite 17 to the TOC?

Millionaires Matt & Amy get a bye into the semis. (Or 30+ game winners)

23, 16, 11, 7 & 7 wins separated for the QF round.
Professor, College, 4x, 4x and SCT winner get one of the above.
6, 5, 5, 5 are separated
One more spot comes from remainder of the season or 2nd place in SCT.

Yes, only 2 wildcards with this format.

Yeah, yeah, I know, don't give the powers any ideas.
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Robert K S
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by Robert K S »

With Alex gone, TPTB may feel little compunction to stick with his ToC tournament format.
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finishemzoe
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by finishemzoe »

jeff6286 wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 12:38 pm
triviawayne wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 9:38 am
BigDaddyMatty wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:28 am
hansenkd wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 1:12 am Why the hostility?

John Focht and Jackie Kelly are far superior players to the 4x champs in the last TOC. Jackie is truly great, far from "excess baggage." They should be in.
I haven't seen these episodes, so I'm just going off a quick review of the Archive, but John lost the Coryat battle in three of his five games. He went 7/8 on DDs, but only 3/5 on FJ! That doesn't sound like the profile of a player that is a must-have in the ToC.
doesn't matter, qualified is qualified, and Coryat has nothing to do with that. If strength based on whatever numbers other than wins/money won matters, considering his well-known luck, should our current superchamp be in the TOC?
No one was saying John or Jackie is NOT worthy. This was a counteragument to the claim that they are SO worthy that the qualifying period should be cut off several months in advance in order to assure their qualification.
not that it has any bearing on what they do (or should do) this time, but that is technically what they did for the 2019 and 2021 tournaments... those are probably special cases though, given the situations with Larry Martin and Alex Trebek/Brayden Smith.

I get that it's just the process, but it'd be a shame if Jackie got knocked off which is pretty likely now. she could definitely be an underdog/dark horse to take it all.

not that it matters right now since the field isn't finalized, but this is probably how I'd have them all ranked:

Gold: Matt Amodio, Amy Schneider, Mattea Roach, Andrew He, Jonathan Fisher
Silver: Eric Ahasic, Ryan Long, Brian Chang, Zach Newkirk, Jackie Kelly
Bronze: Sam Buttrey, Tyler Rhode, Courtney Shah, John Focht, Jaskaran Singh
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hansenkd
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by hansenkd »

yclept wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:53 am
triviawayne wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:57 pm It has been stated that the TOC will be in November, and held every year.

It has been stated it is for the previous year (either year since last TOC or season, don't remember, don't care to look).

While there is a tracker, what we have not had confirmed anywhere is how large the field will be.

Either way, calls for cutting off now aren't going to happen, and it doesn't matter what has been done in the past.
While they could expand the field, the official tracker continues to knock players off when they are no longer in the Top 15.

Do I want Jackie in the tournament? No doubt she has the ability to not only be competitive but to make a run even in a field of super champions. It just sucks for her that 4-day champions can every well be shut out of the field.

That is where the Second Chance Tournament comes in and who exactly is going to qualify for it. We know they want people who put in big efforts against strong champions, only to lose. We know that the one college player who was shut out of the finals due to the quirkiness of the tournament will get a bid. How do they feel about near-qualifiers for the TOC? I would find it a bit silly to leave the 4x champions out of it. While it sucks to be a strong player who runs into a historical champion, the bottom line is that the 4x players have a stronger claim to be in the TOC and should be given their chance to get in.

As for past qualifiers and what not, we should all agree that Emma was a very special case. They couldn’t justify adding Nancy Zerg after she beat Ken, but it is easier to justify Emma. I don’t see a reason why Jackie would be a special case.
How about the highest ever single game score for a woman not named Schneider?
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by Ironhorse »

hansenkd wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:21 pm

How about the highest ever single game score for a woman not named Schneider?
Elyse Mansuco had a higher score.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by Golf »

Irrelevant. If you don’t qualify then you don’t qualify. Rating the players on perceived qualities is purely subjective. That’s why totally objective metrics are used.

You can wish all you want that a certain player be included in the ToC, but it’s impossible to prove or convince others when the objective metrics show otherwise.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by hansenkd »

Golf wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:10 pm Irrelevant. If you don’t qualify then you don’t qualify. Rating the players on perceived qualities is purely subjective. That’s why totally objective metrics are used.

You can wish all you want that a certain player be included in the ToC, but it’s impossible to prove or convince others when the objective metrics show otherwise.
I feel objectively confident in objectively saying that by any objective metric, Jackie Kelly is objectively an objectively better Jeopardy! player than Megan Wachspress.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by opusthepenguin »

hansenkd wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:27 pm
Golf wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:10 pm Irrelevant. If you don’t qualify then you don’t qualify. Rating the players on perceived qualities is purely subjective. That’s why totally objective metrics are used.

You can wish all you want that a certain player be included in the ToC, but it’s impossible to prove or convince others when the objective metrics show otherwise.
I feel objectively confident in objectively saying that by any objective metric, Jackie Kelly is objectively an objectively better Jeopardy! player than Megan Wachspress.
Even if the objective metric is "number of games won" which, objectively, is the objective metric they objectively use.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by Golf »

Is it in good taste to objectify a woman in this way?
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by finishemzoe »

hansenkd wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:27 pm
Golf wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:10 pm Irrelevant. If you don’t qualify then you don’t qualify. Rating the players on perceived qualities is purely subjective. That’s why totally objective metrics are used.

You can wish all you want that a certain player be included in the ToC, but it’s impossible to prove or convince others when the objective metrics show otherwise.
I feel objectively confident in objectively saying that by any objective metric, Jackie Kelly is objectively an objectively better Jeopardy! player than Megan Wachspress.
Lol. Man look, I'm disappointed at the very plausible prospect that Jackie probably isn't going to be in the TOC like you are, but this is such a sore attitude. Megan won 5 games, Jackie didn't. Megan also defeated a very strong 6-time champion. You can't just act like she doesn't belong there, she 100% earned her ticket.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by hansenkd »

finishemzoe wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:37 pm
hansenkd wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:27 pm
Golf wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:10 pm Irrelevant. If you don’t qualify then you don’t qualify. Rating the players on perceived qualities is purely subjective. That’s why totally objective metrics are used.

You can wish all you want that a certain player be included in the ToC, but it’s impossible to prove or convince others when the objective metrics show otherwise.
I feel objectively confident in objectively saying that by any objective metric, Jackie Kelly is objectively an objectively better Jeopardy! player than Megan Wachspress.
Lol. Man look, I'm disappointed at the very plausible prospect that Jackie probably isn't going to be in the TOC like you are, but this is such a sore attitude. Megan won 5 games, Jackie didn't. Megan also defeated a very strong 6-time champion. You can't just act like she doesn't belong there, she 100% earned her ticket.
Yeah, I get it. I just resent them for not cutting off the ToC earlier when there were so many arguably less worthy 4x champs in the last ToC.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by finishemzoe »

hansenkd wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:49 pm
finishemzoe wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:37 pm
hansenkd wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:27 pm
Golf wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:10 pm Irrelevant. If you don’t qualify then you don’t qualify. Rating the players on perceived qualities is purely subjective. That’s why totally objective metrics are used.

You can wish all you want that a certain player be included in the ToC, but it’s impossible to prove or convince others when the objective metrics show otherwise.
I feel objectively confident in objectively saying that by any objective metric, Jackie Kelly is objectively an objectively better Jeopardy! player than Megan Wachspress.
Lol. Man look, I'm disappointed at the very plausible prospect that Jackie probably isn't going to be in the TOC like you are, but this is such a sore attitude. Megan won 5 games, Jackie didn't. Megan also defeated a very strong 6-time champion. You can't just act like she doesn't belong there, she 100% earned her ticket.
Yeah, I get it. I just resent them for not cutting off the ToC earlier when there were so many arguably less worthy 4x champs in the last ToC.
Well, nothing's been finalized yet and Jackie is technically still on the tracker. I know some people are rumoring either an expanded field or some players being held over for 2023. I wouldn't be surprised with a season as strong as this one.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by AntmanB »

12 5xers, professors, college, and 2nd chance champion means we have 15.............................. im guessing they expand but for this season only - but this could be it too, they could just move the 4x ers to the 2nd chance Tourney, say the toc cutoff was june 20th and Call it a Day
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by Mathew5000 »

Robert K S wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:23 am With Alex gone, TPTB may feel little compunction to stick with his ToC tournament format.
In case they don't like the idea of giving byes to certain players, here's an alternative format for 18 entrants (this would require 13 episodes rather than 10):
Six quarter-final games, no sequestration needed: Winners advance to the semi-finals, second-place finishers compete in playoffs, third-place finishers are eliminated.
Two playoff games, with sequestration: The two winners and the highest scorer among non-winners advance to the semi-finals.
Three semi-final games: Winners advance to the finals.
Two-game final match: Player with highest combined total declared tournament winner.

(As an alternative to the two-game final match, it would be interesting to have a single hour-long game, structured with two Jeopardy rounds followed by one Double Jeopardy round, one Triple Jeopardy round, and then Final Jeopardy. In the Triple Jeopardy round, clue values would range from $600 to $3000 and there would be three daily doubles.)
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by GoodStrategy »

Mathew5000 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:50 pmIn case they don't like the idea of giving byes to certain players, here's an alternative format for 18 entrants (this would require 13 episodes rather than 10)
Or with keeping a 10-day tourney:
Six quarterfinals, single-elimination (thus no sequestration needed)
Two semifinals, the winners and the highest-scoring nonwinner advance to the finals (so sequestration would be needed)
Two-game final match using the usual format
(I believed this format was actually used for one of the Fleming-era ToCs, but with the usual practice from that version where the points from the first day were in play and wagerable on DDs/FJ! on the second day.)
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by triviawayne »

GoodStrategy wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:21 am
Mathew5000 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:50 pmIn case they don't like the idea of giving byes to certain players, here's an alternative format for 18 entrants (this would require 13 episodes rather than 10)
Or with keeping a 10-day tourney:
Six quarterfinals, single-elimination (thus no sequestration needed)
Two semifinals, the winners and the highest-scoring nonwinner advance to the finals (so sequestration would be needed)
Two-game final match using the usual format
(I believed this format was actually used for one of the Fleming-era ToCs, but with the usual practice from that version where the points from the first day were in play and wagerable on DDs/FJ! on the second day.)
with highest scoring nonwinners advancing (which is a terrible criteria), there would still be sequestration necessary.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by triviawayne »

Mathew5000 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:50 pm
As an alternative to the two-game final match, it would be interesting to have a single hour-long game, structured with two Jeopardy rounds followed by one Double Jeopardy round, one Triple Jeopardy round, and then Final Jeopardy. In the Triple Jeopardy round, clue values would range from $600 to $3000 and there would be three daily doubles.
I like this idea, don't know how well it would work, but would certainly be worth testing. I never loved the two-day final, but never hated it either; and wouldn't mind seeing something different, but only if it was an improvement.
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Re: Time to cut off ToC...

Post by GoodStrategy »

triviawayne wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:53 pmwith highest scoring nonwinners advancing (which is a terrible criteria), there would still be sequestration necessary.
That would apply only in the two semifinal games with the format mentioned in my last post. All of the quarterfinals would be win-and-in, lose-and-out.
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